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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Back in Naxx, people didn't understand the sheer value of deathrattle as a mechanic. In GVG, a similar thing happened but with cards like Dr. Boom and Muster for Battle where the number of tokens giving value was hard to judge (still is sometimes, like with the new 6 drop). With recent expansions, things have gotten a lot easier to judge, as evidenced by TGT and streamers getting it mostly right.

Mysterious Challenger was only hard to judge because no one actually thought people would put 10 secrets in a deck when they are all so bad individually, and Grim Patron originally did not have the interaction with Warsong Commander, until Commander was hotfixed.

Edit: And I'm the only one who has been complaining about Divine Favor since release.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:31 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Museum Curator has useless stats and no tempo, meaning that you are literally just better off putting an aggressive or high end deathrattle in your deck depending on what you are playing.

literally
Novice Engineer was nerfed from 1/2 to 1/1 because it saw too much play, and Discover lets me adapt to the current game state. Get a Deathlord, Dark Cultist, Zombie Chow or Harvest Golem early, get a Shredder or Belcher for random value, get a Sneed's, Sky Golem, Cairn or Majordomo for the grindy matchups. Flexibility is valuable. If the stats were useless, then you might as well say that the paladin's hero power is irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:09 pm 
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Novince Engineer, as a 1/2, would not see play today. You have to remember that that was back in a meta where the origianl Nat Pagle was overpowered, and where you had a reasonable chance of Alarm-o-bot working.

The paladin's hero power is repeatable, has positive guaranteed synergy with parts of their deck most likely, and does not consume a draw.

Both of these are thus really bad analogies.



You are also observing the best case. Discover does not let you get cards from other classes, so there isn't any crazy synergy involved there. And you are paying 2 mana for a 1/2 plus some random card, likely to be worse than something in your deck on average, that you still have to pay more mana to cast. Something you generally cannot afford to do in most games early on. In fact, it's almost useless in an aggro deck because they already know their plan and what they want to be doing. In a control deck, there are meta-dependent choices you can make that will make it a 99% chance it's just better to include a card that DEFINITELY improves your matchups over a card that is "flexible" but unreliable and a tempo hit.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:13 pm 
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pretty sure nat pagle saw very little play after his nerf

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Thus the phrase "the original nat pagle".


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:56 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Novince Engineer, as a 1/2, would not see play today. You have to remember that that was back in a meta where the origianl Nat Pagle was overpowered, and where you had a reasonable chance of Alarm-o-bot working.

So a card that was considered overpowered would now be worthless? Sure, the meta is slower, but I don't buy that.
mjack33 wrote:
The paladin's hero power is repeatable, has positive guaranteed synergy with parts of their deck most likely, and does not consume a draw.

Curator replaces itself, so it doesn't consume a draw either, and idk what you mean with "positive synergies". When did Priest lose their buffs? If its stats for 2 mana is useless, then the paladin hero power also makes useless creatures. Doing a useless thing several times doesn't make it useful. Of course, the Paladin hero power is far from useless, so paying 2 mana for a 1/2 has some value.
mjack33 wrote:
You are also observing the best case.

They're not that crazy. If you just want value later in the game, then you have Cairne, Sylvanas, Sneed's, Toshley, Sky Golem, Belcher, Dark Cultist, Mechanical Yeti and Shredder, which is almost a third of the pool, and you get three options. More if you are less greedy. Aggro has lower quality, but there are 10 decent options costing 3 or less.
mjack33 wrote:
Discover does not let you get cards from other classes, so there isn't any crazy synergy involved there.

Would have loved a Highmane or Tirion, but I know.
mjack33 wrote:
And you are paying 2 mana for a 1/2 plus some random card, likely to be worse than something in your deck on average, that you still have to pay more mana to cast.

The 1/2 is free card advantage though. And I believe the flexibility could easily make it better than a card in my deck on average. Quite a lot of deathrattles are already pretty good as it is.
mjack33 wrote:
Something you generally cannot afford to do in most games early on.

Traditional control priest often has nothing to do on turn 2.
mjack33 wrote:
In fact, it's almost useless in an aggro deck because they already know their plan and what they want to be doing.

Who plays aggro priest?
mjack33 wrote:
In a control deck, there are meta-dependent choices you can make that will make it a 99% chance it's just better to include a card that DEFINITELY improves your matchups over a card that is "flexible" but unreliable and a tempo hit.

Must be nice to have a meta game consisting of one deck. Most cards aren't objectively better against every single matchup though, especially not as a priest.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:14 pm 
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pretty sure pre-nerf nat pagle would be overpowered in today's meta

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Mown wrote:
mjack33 wrote:
Novince Engineer, as a 1/2, would not see play today. You have to remember that that was back in a meta where the origianl Nat Pagle was overpowered, and where you had a reasonable chance of Alarm-o-bot working.

So a card that was considered overpowered would now be worthless? Sure, the meta is slower, but I don't buy that. A) the meta is faster, which is the problem and B) Cairne Bloodhoof is a good example of an "overpowered" card that now sees almost no play. I fail to see why giving a novice engineer 1 more health would make it any more playable.

mjack33 wrote:
The paladin's hero power is repeatable, has positive guaranteed synergy with parts of their deck most likely, and does not consume a draw.

Curator replaces itself, so it doesn't consume a draw either, and idk what you mean with "positive synergies". When did Priest lose their buffs? If its stats for 2 mana is useless, then the paladin hero power also makes useless creatures. Doing a useless thing several times doesn't make it useful. Of course, the Paladin hero power is far from useless, so paying 2 mana for a 1/2 has some value.

Curator does consume a draw. You have to put it in your deck, and draw it instead of something else that WILL be better on that turn if you don't have the ability to play Curator and the card it discovers simultaneously (it will be often the case that it will be better anyways).

mjack33 wrote:
You are also observing the best case.

They're not that crazy. If you just want value later in the game, then you have Cairne, Sylvanas, Sneed's, Toshley, Sky Golem, Belcher, Dark Cultist, Mechanical Yeti and Shredder, which is almost a third of the pool, and you get three options. More if you are less greedy. Aggro has lower quality, but there are 10 decent options costing 3 or less.

Even if you want 1/3 of the pool, you have about an 8/27 chance of getting nothing useful. Consistency is kind, unless the rng is overpowered enough on average to be worth the consistency.

mjack33 wrote:
Discover does not let you get cards from other classes, so there isn't any crazy synergy involved there.

Would have loved a Highmane or Tirion, but I know.
mjack33 wrote:
And you are paying 2 mana for a 1/2 plus some random card, likely to be worse than something in your deck on average, that you still have to pay more mana to cast.

The 1/2 is free card advantage though. And I believe the flexibility could easily make it better than a card in my deck on average. Quite a lot of deathrattles are already pretty good as it is.
2 mana and a tempo hit, by definition, is not "free", and in this case it's a very reasonable possibility that whatever you get AND your 1/2 will both get taken out by the same creature.

mjack33 wrote:
Something you generally cannot afford to do in most games early on.

Traditional control priest often has nothing to do on turn 2.
This does not mean you should put a bad 2 drop in your deck so you suddenly have a play.

mjack33 wrote:
In fact, it's almost useless in an aggro deck because they already know their plan and what they want to be doing.

Who plays aggro priest?
People on ladder actually. However, I am talking about the game as a whole. Not everything is seen through the eyes of a priest, which IS probably going to be one of the worse classes to try this in.

mjack33 wrote:
In a control deck, there are meta-dependent choices you can make that will make it a 99% chance it's just better to include a card that DEFINITELY improves your matchups over a card that is "flexible" but unreliable and a tempo hit.

Must be nice to have a meta game consisting of one deck. Most cards aren't objectively better against every single matchup though, especially not as a priest.You play the odds, based on what you are seeing. The meta generally consists of 2 or 3 decks, leaning towards aggro or control. If you see a lot of aggro, you are better off straight-up putting Deathlord in over this tempo hit, while if you are seeing a lot of control you are better off straight up putting another anti-control card in. Possibly something really good that doesn't even have to have a deathratle. Jack of all trades by definition means it's unlikely to be the perfect card for any situation, assuming we say it's going to be good in a lot of situations



This reminds me of the time we were discussing Convert and I wasn't convinced it was a relatively bad card.




@Ragnarokia, it might draw one extra card, but it's not going to survive for multiple turns, which was the reason it used to be "overpowered" back in the day. It was hard to remove before turn 4.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:06 pm 
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Cairne didn't get nerfed, so apparently it wasn't overpowered. Giving it more health prevents it from dying to pings.
I personally think 70% for a good outcome is acceptable. Webspinner gets garbage a lot more often that this will.
If they have to attack the creature to remove it, then that is damage not going to my face. That sounds okay with me.
Well, I don't think the card is bad, so that's not an issue. If I can play a 1/2 over nothing on turn 2, I'll take that.
Not everything, no, but this card is seen through the eyes of a priest. It's the only card you're going to see it played in.
I don't feel like the metas I meet are ever that polarized, although it's probably a bit more aggro right now. I still think the flexibility of the card can get you an increased win percentage that is higher than the average of something that is more targeted in some Priest decks.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:41 pm 
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if you want 1/3 of the pool, you'll get a card you want about 2/3 of the time i think

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:56 pm 
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Murloc legend actually looks really good for Murloc Shamans, which someone pointed out to me. Priest and Warrior are the only hero powers I would consider worse than the Shaman one for that deck, so it's pure upside (at worst you refresh, if you can get your current one.)
Soul Tap is obviously the best, but I wonder whether you'd want Fireblast or Dagger Mastery afterwards. You could also make an argument for Recruit against something like Warrior.
Would you pick Tank Up against a freeze mage? :q

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:04 pm 
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if old nat pagle lives one turn, its a novice engineer that the opponent needs to sink a removal spell on, which is generally a positive trade for you. If he lives two turns, its a cheaper arcane intellect that your opponent might need to sink a removal spell on, which is a blowout.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:05 pm 
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a paladin hero powering results in a 1/1 and no change in hand size
playing this guy results in a 1/2 and no change in hand size

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:06 pm 
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It was still 50/50 previously, it just triggered at the end of your turn instead.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:43 pm 
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Well, i guess its still value if your opponents use removal on it and you get a card out of it. A lot worse than i thought it was though.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:39 am 
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I wouldn't be surprised to see the legendary Murloc in Freeze Mage. You have a solid chance to grab Armor Up, Lesser Heal or Life Tap, all of which are excellent for your game plan.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:33 am 
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Not really, no.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:55 pm 
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So today I played around with the forgotten torch in a fatigue mage and explorer's hat in some dumb baron rivendare thing before they finally decided to remove the cards from being played later today. The torch is probably better then gang up in fatigue rogue for whatever that is worth, and hat is actually pretty ok a card. I used it to trade a dude up in one game, play the hat on another dork and trade him up, and it seems pretty strong in that kind of scenario.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:04 am 
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the torch is a mage card and fatigue rogue is a rogue class

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:29 pm 
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Beat normal with tempo mage, midrange pally, and midrange pally respectively. 0 losses.

I have not done Heroic yet, but the hero powers change in the following ways:
- Djinn also gains a mana crystal.
- Only Phaerix gets to be immun
- I assume (don't know) that the obstacles and decisions are harder.


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