So I spent some time thinking about this last night and it had me come back around to the original thinking. I wonder if this makes Embermaw Hellion worth while? I get the idea of removal for larger than 3 toughness creatures which is why you were suggesting Fiery Conclusion and that eliminates some sort of janky/clunky combination of cards. It's probably the right way to go too. Normally though, folks weren't too concerned to block or attack into a token or two which usually let me take care of the creature(s) with the burn I had (instant or 2nd main). Now after I showed them that, it changed the way they played but if they are hesitating or removing tokens, that's good for us right? Grid did make the opponents attacks worse most of the time since I could block & tap and in combination with the burn in the deck, I was usually able to generate some decent removal.

I'm going to attempt to test the Hellion jank a bit more extensively and I'm also going to give Conclusion some runs too.

Yet again, thanks for the spins and feedback. It's fun to tinker over the last few slots of a deck.


elk



edit - for the sake of not spamming the thread. Fiery Conclusion was handy in a few games and ran better than Grid games (less math too ) so I can see it making the cut.

While looking at the card lists, I wondered if Flameshadow Conjuring would be too slow? Makes sac targets better (Conclusion, Myr, Servitor) and leaves bodies in certain cases (Rogue, Engineer) not to mention that Chief/Soulblade could be painful. I'm just not sure I'd want to take the turn off to play it (win more?).

I ran both Flameshadows for awhile in my Thopters deck, and I felt it was too slow, but damn did it generate some value.

You'll have to let us know if you like Hellion better than Djinn. In my 5 games I never drew Djinn.. but if I would have, it would've had an impact.

I really like the idea of Conclusion.. I'm gonna test later and post here.

I think the Conclusion inclusion (muhaha!) keeps things faster so the Djinn is a better draw most times (and I'm pretty sure having 2 is right). Still can't hurt to mess around with Hellion some more though.

I'm currently working with the cut you mentioned (Grid/ Bolt) for the Conclusions and so far I haven't minded when one shows up (and another game when I considered it as one of my outs).

Flameshadow seems the same idea as Grid to me. You can't always have the nut draw and sometimes you have to grind/draw your way into a match (Flameshadow could bring you back from behind). I think the downside to that is putting in cards where you're betting on those situations happening. I may test it just for fun but don't think it'll stick.


elk

Elk, tried your deck. Went 1-1. Wrecked a golgari deck that got mana screwed.

Then I got mana screwed against Simic. I lasted a long, long time though and got soul blade out which did nothing for a long long time. I can guarantee you that my willbreaker would have won me that game, big time. Soul blade feels very win more. If I had an squadron of thopters, I would have slammed him, but I would have been in a good spot there anyway. I needed to deal with his creatures and planeswalker badly.

I won't dismiss the deck yet since it won a game. I'll try it out another time

Yes because 2 games is a good sample size to even begin judging a decks power

Yeah, I'm not done with it. I just already have founded suspicions about soulblade

Hmmmm.... well maybe a few more spins will change that?

Regarding Soulblade; after some more extensive testing, I've come to realize that it is a win condition. There are definitely a number of games where I don't need to even play it but I'm quite sure now that it's not win more. It does a great job as an anthem (for everything, not just artifacts) but it also works just fine on it's own as a late game finisher. It continues to gain strength (in my hand) where my opponent has to fight my board. I can play out threats creating enough of a board state to maintain the beatdown role and then let them answer. Then continue to repeat the process until the pressure I keep creating is too much. Eventually when Soulblade does come out, they either can't answer it any more or I can trigger it the turn it's cast. If it gets to attack, it's even better (on it's own w/o activation it's a 5 turn clock and we both know by the time it's played, the clock is already much shorter than that).

My question to you is - if it came out in the Simic game, what was the Djinn doing? Could you not swing with it at all or was it a really stalled board? You also mentioned not having any thopters. Had they answered your tokens/aggro (I'm thinking things like Disperse/ Displacement Wave etc for Simic)?

You mentioned some creature concerns too. Beast had suggested Fiery Conclusion which I've now been running two copies of (dropped one twin bolt and the Grid) and it's shored up concerns with the larger creatures (I still don't like that it's creature only for targeting but it does fill a gap). Did you have a chance to try that out in the deck too? If not, I'd suggest squeezing that in and seeing if that helps answer any of the concerns you mentioned.

As for walkers, that's the reason there's a couple Disperse in the list. Disperse is a catch all for things like tempo plays, saving your own creatures, pushing through damage, walkers etc. They are really meant for that key play in a game where you look back and know that play/turn changed the outcome.

Besides, I realize after posting my list, that I've yet again created something that someone else has already built (in this case - you!). Our lists are a small handful of cards apart and therefore should play extremely similar (and should contain many of the same answers you've built into your deck).


Anyway, don't give up on me yet. I look forward to hearing more about how it performed for you. Your testing feedback is always valuable and appreciated (not to mention it's been incorporated before)!


Thanks bro!


elk

Ok I took it out for a another spin last night and did better. Got several wins under the belt before finally losing a match.

I will take it out for another spin again at some point, I didn't delete the deck (which means I like it).

Here's the thing:

The deck is winning because it's Thopters. It's not winning because of the key differences between our two builds. It most definately lost one game because of those differences but last night's loss was not due to Soulblade or your other choices.

I honestly feel like Soulblade is massively win-more. There are times that I have Soulblade on the board and in hand I have one sorcery or instant and a Chief of the Foundry and I'm hesitating which to play. Thopters should be dropping the Chief all the time, it makes you guys more resilient during your opponent's turn. But during my turn, they both basically do the same thing except the instant/sorcery will do something extra AND will pump the Soulblade as well. So that almost always wins over dropping Chief. I think that's a problem with the deck to be honest. It's giving me an incrementally better play at the cost of allowing my opponent to have a more effective turn.

I was talking to Beast and the guy that built that mono-blue deck about problem-solvers. In a combo deck, there isn't much room for them. But in Thopters, we have room. And we do run into problems. So i think things like Disperse and Willbreaker are really good in Thopters since they will help us get where we need to go. Whereas Soulblade MAYBE speeds up our win. He speeds up the win where we were going to win anyway.

I'm not giving up on your deck, I plan to still play it. But right now I think it wins because it's thopters, not because of your individual card choices.

I'm probably up to 10 games at this point with the deck, I'll keep playing. I want that situation to come up where Soulblade wins me a game I might have lots. That has happened a LOT with Willbreaker (in my build) but hasn't happened with your build yet.

So my thoughts on the Chief/ Soulblade comment. My suggestion is to just play the chief (most of the time) and make them answer it first. Then when they do, the soulblade just gets better in terms of surviving and closing out a game.

Think of Soulblade as a Esperzoa. The reason to include Esperzoa is the 4 power evasive damage. Esperzoa's clause, when built for it, can be an upside too but it's mostly about a low cost CMC with a big evasive body. Add that to an engineer and it makes for a good clock.

My variation is more expensive but basically meant to be the same thing (game closer) while having better synergy with the theme of the deck. Soulblade; first and foremost, is a flying beatdown which has the potential to gain more value the longer it's in play. That's why it's tough to compare it to Willbreaker since that card is all about control/tempo vs. beatdown. So don't think of Soulblade as an anthem but more as a late game finisher with potential upside.

In terms of it being win-more, I'm guessing you're saying that when considering it as an anthem effect? If you've got bodies in play; like you said, it can change the clock (which is the point of including lords in the first place) but hopefully you'll still get there anyway. What it is though is just more pressure. The deck does just fine at deploying a good board state and letting you beat down while letting your hand get stronger (i.e. sitting on cards - in fact this is the definition of not over-extending). When they do finally answer your board (or make it so you have to increase your board presence due to their board), you have more threats to replace them with. The principle is that you keep this pressure up until the late game where they have difficulties dealing with any new threats (no more removal, they can't get that wide etc). A turn 7/8/9 Soulblade is probably a two or three turn clock just by itself. Now you're right that most of the time games may not go that long or you don't need to play the Soulblade but it's the same for many finishers. You tend to hold them so they aren't exposed and then play them when they have the best chance of surviving and winning the game. It's one of those - I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Yet again, thanks for the spins and feedback!


elk

Yeah, you're getting me to realize that my build is more controlish in nature. Much more so, in fact. So the cards I have in hand on turns 6-9 are very different than yours. I'm trying to lockdown my eventual win and you're improving your board position and speeding up the clock. Just different styles completely.

Here's a sign that I think Willbreaker might be superior again:
I have a normal board state:
1x either Ruined Servitor or Myr
1x Chief
1x either the Nalaars, Engineer or Whirler Rogue
1x Willbreaker

In that situation, when an opponent has removal, he OFTEN goes for Willbreaker. Whereas in that situation when the Willbreaker is a Soublade, the Chief eats the removal. I think that tells a lot.

I can't explain enough how much I love curving Whirler into Willbreaker and then instantly grabbing something in T5 main phase. Can't do anything 'splosive like that with Soulblade.

I'll keep playing your deck another time (need to see how long I can take Beast's Temur's undefeated streak. I've already beating the Habs' 9 game winning opener)


edit: one weird thing is that on your side, Soulblade is a key player in your deck with two copies. Willbreaker is simply a 1x splash in mine, the deck is enhanced by his presence but doesn't need him. I splash one willbreaker and a reclusive artificer (those combo together too sometimes)

Which if you think about it, is just fine. He's removing Chief for the effect meaning you have additional artifact creatures in play with Soulblade. Realistically that's some thopter tokens which is probably 5 to 7 damage in the air w/o a trigger? If you do get a trigger off, than it just shrinks the clock even more (and we do have burn 'outs' for closers). Also remember that a trigger pumps everything so it's good for combat tricks and all the other creatures that typically can't swing.



I think the first part is correct. Engineer + Rogue + Pia = Thopters archetype = win. We're probably going to win based on that core so everything else after that is how you compliment it. Soulblade isn't a must (and why I had reduced to 1 copy to experiment with other cards) but it is an out to a finisher and compliments the theme I was going for.

Our builds are very similar but I do agree that the differences change the deck's intent. You do have options to tempo/control with your variation whereas my differences are aiming to race (not sure if I mentioned the reason for going this aggro/burn route but it was because there's virtually no lifegain in this format).

Oh and Jinx on your win streak so you come back to the boring thopters!


elk

hehe when Beast's Temur eventually loses, I want to give the following decks one run each before going back to Thopters by Elk (that's what I called it)

- Elves
- My Thopters
- Golgari Control
- Gruel Monsters
- Red Aggro
- Boros Midrange
- Jund Control
- RDW
- Mono Red Burn

If any of those decks lose their first match, it's DELETE time

There are three key things at play that are hard to deal with in this meta:

---Creatures that create inherent card advantage (Engineer/Whirler/Parents) while also disabling Fleshbag (the format's true premium removal).
---1/1 flying tokens truly clock the opponent (there is basically no lifegain and only one creature with reach in the entire pool - a rare Legendary Elf).
---EvoLeap (most powerful card in the format, bar none).

They synergize very well, too, because the value creatures create the fliers which you can turn into "real" cards via Evoleap, completing the cycle.

"What'll it be, Deion37215? Thopters? Evoleap?"

"Both."

/reported

That's right.. both.

..and Krasis.. and Colossus.. and Gaea.

i finally got to play Gaea against a blue control deck for the first time last night. It was SOOOOO satisfying. The guy was countering and bouncing everything

Hakeem's comment triggers me. I don't know why... maybe the pure unabashed Spike of it all... maybe the fact that he refured to evolpea by the wrong name. Maybe I'm just really tired and had to deal with the mother of my sister's friend today(technically yesterday...). The world will never know

we don't know what triggering someone means

we're adults

Hey! Get outta the thopters.....errr.... I mean...Izzet thread!



elk

I use triggered ironically. Or you know when when it's actually used with relation to a real condition like PTSD and not a blind hatred of penises and all things that may at one point have touched a penis