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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:39 pm 
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Votes:

Ragnarokio: 15377, True_Believer, NeoSilk (3)
True_Believer: GobO_Scarlet, KoD (2)
Random Lynch: Ragnarokio (1)
Niklor: Silly (1)
Silly: Niklor (1)
KoD: squinty_eyes (1)
No vote: Garren_Windspear, Fruit, Zinger2099 (3)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:03 pm 
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Silly wrote:
You should do some talking.

There has to be stuff to mention besides "wow there was a lot of discussion".

I'm quite aware. I've been sick lately and haven't had much of any presence on the board at all, and I'm sorry for that. As far as the entire random lynch discussion, it's such a bad idea I can't even begin to touch on it. Don't do it, please. I will try and talk more soon, but I'm still really under the weather. Missed johnny's Quest too and had to have a buddy fill in for me....

~SE++

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:58 pm 
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Vote:Rag

Obviously I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject but it seems to me that a random lynch on day 1 will be a detriment in the long term. Rag has a few good points but trying to point to a sample of just 11 games to support his argument is... underwhelming to say the least. He also was fine lynching me and when I asked why he said "just jokes". Not so sure about that one.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:05 am 
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Votes:

Ragnarokio: 15377, True_Believer, NeoSilk, Fruit (4)
True_Believer: GobO_Scarlet, KoD (2)
Random Lynch: Ragnarokio (1)
Niklor: Silly (1)
Silly: Niklor (1)
KoD: squinty_eyes (1)
No vote: Garren_Windspear, Zinger2099 (2)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:19 am 
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Fruit wrote:
Vote:Rag

Obviously I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject but it seems to me that a random lynch on day 1 will be a detriment in the long term. Rag has a few good points but trying to point to a sample of just 11 games to support his argument is... underwhelming to say the least. He also was fine lynching me and when I asked why he said "just jokes". Not so sure about that one.

I'm fine with lynching you too. Are you going to pull that card on me as well? :V

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:04 am 
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Ragnarokio has flawed logic, but I see that as an indication of differing opinion, not an indication of Alignment. I have a hard time believing that pro-random Lynch Ragnarokio is in favour of random lynching as a scum tactic to get Town to shoot themselves in the foot.

That being said we have little else to go on Day 1, so I'm fine with a potential Ragnarokio Lynch, I'm just suspicious of certain members on his bandwagon for labelling Rag as scum for having a different opinion and/or using flawed logic. Town can have different opinions or use flawed logic too.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:16 am 
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Intentionally misrepresenting a fact isn't a difference of opinion Zinger. And it's been labeled intentional for the simple reason that when he was corrected on his misrepresentation, he continued to push his stance, even though it is proven to be wrong. Now town can have a difference of opinion, in this case namely the notion that town would be the only ones for a random lynch. And town is certainly capable of using flawed logic. But when it's pointed out that the logic is factually incorrect, continuing to insist on using it in the face of logic and reason makes you culpable. Or are you really trying to insist that intentionally misrepresenting facts in order to make your stance seem more true than it actually is is a valid town play?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:36 am 
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I have used some fallacious logic, but not nearly as much as KoD and Numbers have, who seem to misunderstand the basic nature of probability. The one point I will give them is that 11 games is not a suitable sample size, and I expressed more confidence in the 18% figure than I probably had the right to, given the evidence. The conclusions that I drew and the reasons I made for drawing them, are, as far as I can tell, sound.

Here's my argument for random voting, prettied up and detailed:

Spoiler


@Numbers: What makes you think i'm scummy as opposed to just stupid and/or stubborn?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:29 am 
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15377 wrote:
Intentionally misrepresenting a fact isn't a difference of opinion Zinger. And it's been labeled intentional for the simple reason that when he was corrected on his misrepresentation, he continued to push his stance, even though it is proven to be wrong. Now town can have a difference of opinion, in this case namely the notion that town would be the only ones for a random lynch. And town is certainly capable of using flawed logic. But when it's pointed out that the logic is factually incorrect, continuing to insist on using it in the face of logic and reason makes you culpable. Or are you really trying to insist that intentionally misrepresenting facts in order to make your stance seem more true than it actually is is a valid town play?

Fair points all around, but explain to me what ways could a scum Rag possibly benefit from the intentional play you are purporting that is being made? All you've done is prove that Rag is stubborn and will stick to an argument in the face of proof to the contrary. I see no scum motivations in anything you've said.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:51 am 
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We are not the ones misrepresenting the basic nature of probability. Probability is a mathematical theorem. It doesn't care about your past success rate. It doesn't care about the actions you'll take to circumvent it. These things don't affect probability yet your argument continues to contend that these things do. We've already gone over how past games don't affect probability, so we'll take a quick look at your circumventure argument. You're argument is akin to the kid in math class that, when given the pulling jelly beans out of a bag problem in math class, simply says he'll look in the bag and pull out the one he wants to. You could if you wanted to but then you're not looking at the actual problem at hand and the teacher would tell you as such. Probability is in it's own little pocket universe, where actions don't affect it (this is not to say the success rate will not be affected, but again, probability doesn't care about your success rate).

As for stupid or stubborn, I know you're not stupid Rag. I think it's plainly obvious you're stubborn. But that's a personality trait and not a scum or town tell. I believe that your assertion on a Random lynch today isn't even a scum or town tell in itself, just a matter of opinion. However, I do not believe you've presented any solid backing for your belief and instead have continually misrepresented facts to try to lend credibility to your argument. Since I do not believe town has a reason to do so this early in the game, I cannot believe that your actions are directed by the belief that what you are doing is for the town's benefit. Since I do not believe you are motivated by the town's benefit, I'm only left with the options that you're willing to sacrifice the town's benefit to be "right" or you're actively working against the town's benefit. My default is to lean to the latter. I also feel that True fits into this same conundrum, but in a slightly different way (less "right" more for some abilities end). I haven't decided if he's former or latter though.

@Zinger, both KoD and I have pointed out multiple reasons why scum would push a random lynch. It's the same detrimental reasons Scarlet has given on why town wouldn't support a random lynch. You said you agreed with those. So a question for you, if you can see why town wouldn't support a random lynch, then you can see why scum would (ie scum obviously wants to be of detriment to town). So the question is if you can see all that, why are you trying so hard to keep Rag's fat out of the fire?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:02 pm 
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Quote:
Probability is a mathematical theorem. It doesn't care about your past success rate. It doesn't care about the actions you'll take to circumvent it.


I have never claimed that, concerning probability, past success rates influence future success rates. I have never claimed that, concerning probability, how I act influences success rates? (sorry I'm not really sure what you're claiming I said here.)

So you think I'm scum because I'm lying to people about the way math works?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:21 pm 
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Just a note:

I don't believe, at any point, the reason for pursuing Rag as a lynch choice is because of being thought of as scum. Rather, and as JD put it, it has been Rag's approach to pushing the random lynch agenda in different ways. The main one being a misrepresentation of probability. Given that nothing else as impactful has happened yet, Rag's insistence on town going with a random lynch for faulty and misrepresented reasons is a good enough reason to vote him.

Matter of fact, I much prefer the way JD put it in his response to Rag recently. Having assessed Rag's stance, it's a simple conclusion to draw that Rag's agenda is one that is not in the best interest of the town. Why that is, whether because of personality (being stubborn to accept being wrong in the case of probability) or due to being scum, is the only question that need to be asked.

Given the conversation, at length, with Rag, I'm not above saying Rag doesn't know how probability works in this case since he's trying to act like rng can't have a bad success rate like we can. Not to mention Rag's error trying to use success rate as a probability which is wrong.


So, in short Rag, if anyone thinks you're scum, it is because of how you went about pushing the random lynch. Not because you support random lynch (something I had to mention to TB who is also in the same camp of thinking in error like you).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Quote:
I'm fine with lynching you too. Are you going to pull that card on me as well? :V


No. Rag was pushing for a random lynch but then changed to wanting to lynch me. When I asked him why me over a random lynch he said he was just kidding around.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:25 pm 
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Rag kids around a lot. Don't worry about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:50 pm 
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I'm very comfortable with where my vote is now, and I'm going to wave a big FoS at TB.
Random lynch might seem like fun, but it's just a bad idea all around.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:56 pm 
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@KoD: Why is me using faulty reasoning a scumtell?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:26 pm 
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I never said your use of horrible logic was a scumtell. I said the way you went about pushing the random lynch is cause for people to view you as scummy.

Now, if you think misrepresenting information to push your agenda (one that is not beneficial to the town as far as I am concerned) is not scummy, then that is your problem to figure out.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:32 pm 
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You seemed to imply that the fautiness of my reasoning was part of your reason for voting me.

Rag's insistence on town going with a random lynch for faulty and misrepresented reasons is a good enough reason to vote him.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:10 pm 
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You do realize there are other words after that one, particular, word you decided to bold, yes?

You also do realize that what you bolded is true, yes?

It's one thing to be unlearned when it comes to the maths you are talking about. It's another to be shown that you are literally incorrect, yet still pursue your agenda despite being wrong.

Besides, implied or not, I never said it was a scumtell. You're still scummy regardless of that.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:30 pm 
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@Rag, what I'm saying is that you've submitted previously that past success rates and player actions affect probability, which is strictly untrue. Here's some quotes for reference:

Quote:
If we succeeded 18% of the time in the past, then the odds of success are around 18%.


Here you directly state that probability is roughly equal to previous success rate.

Quote:
The first is the number of scum. Generally speaking, the town's base chance of lynching scum are a little lower than would be proportional. With 1 scum and 9 town players, the basic odds of hitting scum are a little under 1/10. With 2 scum and 8 town they're a little under 2/10. This offset is to account for the fact that scum players are inclined to not vote for other scum players but town players can't do the same, at least without information.


Here you are offsetting probability unjustly to account for scum actions.

As for why I think you're scummy, as I said before, I see no reason for town to misrepresent an argument this early in the game. I do see reason why scum would though. So rather than think you're just shooting town in the foot so you can look right, I lean towards you trying to mislead town because you're scum.

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