The rules say that his last two abilities only work on flips that have a winner and loser (they don't work on Molten Sentry for example). So why are they triggered by his own cumulative upkeep ability?
Joined: Nov 08, 2013 Posts: 620 Location: Zaragoza, Spain
Because the rules say so:
CompRules wrote:
705. Flipping a Coin
705.1. To flip a coin for an object that cares whether a player wins or loses the flip, the affected player flips the coin and calls “heads” or “tails.” If the call matches the result, that player wins the flip. Otherwise, the player loses the flip. Only the player who flips the coin wins or loses the flip; no other players are involved.
705.2. To flip a coin for an object that cares whether the coin comes up heads or tails, each affected player flips a coin without making a call. No player wins or loses this kind of flip.
Rulings 7/15/2006 The coin flip rules have changed. You now win or lose a flip only if *you* flipped the coin. If your opponent loses a flip, that no longer means that you win that flip. Only coin flips caused by cards that say "win" and/or "lose" anywhere on them have a winner or loser.
7/15/2006 If a spell or ability uses a coin flip to determine what happens on a heads result versus a tails result, the flipping player doesn't call "heads" or "tails." Such flips have no winner or loser.
7/15/2006 When Karplusan Minotaur's cumulative upkeep ability resolves, you either flip a number of coins equal to the number of age counters on it, or you sacrifice it. Once you start to flip, you can't stop; you must continue until all flips are made. If you flip, you call heads or tails for each flip. Each time you're right, the Minotaur's second ability triggers. Each time you're wrong, the Minotaur's third ability triggers. The triggers wait until after you're done flipping, then they all go on the stack in whatever order you choose. Each may have a different target.
7/15/2006 The Minotaur's last two abilities will trigger whenever you win or lose any coin flip. For example, if you cast Stitch in Time, one of the Minotaur's abilities will trigger.
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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"
Joined: Nov 08, 2013 Posts: 620 Location: Zaragoza, Spain
Common sense clarifies, too. The intent is obvious and Karplusan Minotaur does care whether you win or lose the flips, though this is stated in its other abilities. Sure, they could have worded the first ability like "Cumulative Upkeep - Flip a coin. If you win the flip, congrats do nothing", but that would have been more confusing.
Last edited by Nylon on Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sure, they could have worded the first ability like "Cumulative Upkeep - Flip a coin. If you win the flip, congrats do nothing", but that would have been more confusing.
Eh it could have been more along the lines of "Cumulative Upkeep - Flip a coin, noting how many flips you win or lose." This would make sense within the rules on the card because you do all the flips and then all the triggers happen.
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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"
Joined: Oct 10, 2015 Posts: 14
Identity: F-22 Raptor-kin
I think that the comp rules should either explicitly state that if something just tells you to flip a coin on it's own it has a winner and loser or that the card itself should get errata.
I think that the comp rules should either explicitly state that if something just tells you to flip a coin on it's own it has a winner and loser or that the card itself should get errata.
Sounds logical. Something outlining that unless a card specifically mentions the outcomes of a heads and/or tails flip(s), then the process of flipping a coin must be called and has a winner and loser.
Or we could read Karplusan Minotaur, note that manifestly is an object that cares about whether you win or lose the flip, and apply rule 705.1 like that rule says we should.
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"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins."
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Joined: Oct 07, 2015 Posts: 13
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What? You expect us to actually read the rules? And apply them, on top if it?
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Wanna steal a million bucks? Just steal a hundred millions, then give back 99 of them. They'll be so thankfull, they'll elect you again in four years...
Or we could read Karplusan Minotaur, note that manifestly is an object that cares about whether you win or lose the flip, and apply rule 705.1 like that rule says we should.
[Citation Needed] Where does it say that the CU flip has a winner or loser? It just says to flip a coin.
Spoiler
702.23. Cumulative Upkeep
702.23a Cumulative upkeep is a triggered ability that imposes an increasing cost on a permanent. “Cumulative upkeep [cost]” means “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent is on the battlefield, put an age counter on this permanent. Then you may pay [cost] for each age counter on it. If you don’t, sacrifice it.” If [cost] has choices associated with it, each choice is made separately for each age counter, then either the entire set of costs is paid, or none of them is paid. Partial payments aren’t allowed. Example: A creature has “Cumulative upkeep {W} or {U}” and two age counters on it. When its ability next triggers and resolves, the creature’s controller puts an age counter on it and then may pay {W}{W}{W}, {W}{W}{U}, {W}{U}{U}, or {U}{U}{U} to keep the creature on the battlefield. Example: A creature has “Cumulative upkeep—Sacrifice a creature” and one age counter on it. When its ability next triggers and resolves, its controller can’t choose the same creature to sacrifice twice. Either two different creatures must be sacrificed, or the creature with cumulative upkeep must be sacrificed.
702.23b If a permanent has multiple instances of cumulative upkeep, each triggers separately. However, the age counters are not connected to any particular ability; each cumulative upkeep ability will count the total number of age counters on the permanent at the time that ability resolves. Example: A creature has two instances of “Cumulative upkeep—Pay 1 life.” The creature has no age counters, and both cumulative upkeep abilities trigger. When the first ability resolves, the controller adds a counter and then chooses to pay 1 life. When the second ability resolves, the controller adds another counter and then chooses to pay an additional 2 life.
705. Flipping a Coin
705.1. To flip a coin for an object that cares whether a player wins or loses the flip, the affected player flips the coin and calls “heads” or “tails.” If the call matches the result, that player wins the flip. Otherwise, the player loses the flip. Only the player who flips the coin wins or loses the flip; no other players are involved.
705.2. To flip a coin for an object that cares whether the coin comes up heads or tails, each affected player flips a coin without making a call. No player wins or loses this kind of flip.
705.3. A coin used in a flip must be a two-sided object with easily distinguished sides and equal likelihood that either side lands face up. If the coin that’s being flipped doesn’t have an obvious “heads” or “tails,” designate one side to be “heads,” and the other side to be “tails.” Other methods of randomization may be substituted for flipping a coin as long as there are two possible outcomes of equal likelihood and all players agree to the substitution. For example, the player may roll an even-sided die and call “odds” or “evens,” or roll an even-sided die and designate that “odds” means “heads” and “evens” means “tails.”
Nowhere does the ability or rules indicate that Minotaurs CU cost cares if there is a winner or a loser, it just tells you to flip a coin unrelated and unconnected to anything else. If the rules take time to define what a coin is, they can take time to say "If an ability simply says to flip a coin, it has a winner and loser."
Or we could read Karplusan Minotaur, note that manifestly is an object that cares about whether you win or lose the flip, and apply rule 705.1 like that rule says we should.
[Citation Needed] Where does it say that the CU flip has a winner or loser? It just says to flip a coin.
Spoiler
702.23. Cumulative Upkeep
702.23a Cumulative upkeep is a triggered ability that imposes an increasing cost on a permanent. “Cumulative upkeep [cost]” means “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent is on the battlefield, put an age counter on this permanent. Then you may pay [cost] for each age counter on it. If you don’t, sacrifice it.” If [cost] has choices associated with it, each choice is made separately for each age counter, then either the entire set of costs is paid, or none of them is paid. Partial payments aren’t allowed. Example: A creature has “Cumulative upkeep {W} or {U}” and two age counters on it. When its ability next triggers and resolves, the creature’s controller puts an age counter on it and then may pay {W}{W}{W}, {W}{W}{U}, {W}{U}{U}, or {U}{U}{U} to keep the creature on the battlefield. Example: A creature has “Cumulative upkeep—Sacrifice a creature” and one age counter on it. When its ability next triggers and resolves, its controller can’t choose the same creature to sacrifice twice. Either two different creatures must be sacrificed, or the creature with cumulative upkeep must be sacrificed.
702.23b If a permanent has multiple instances of cumulative upkeep, each triggers separately. However, the age counters are not connected to any particular ability; each cumulative upkeep ability will count the total number of age counters on the permanent at the time that ability resolves. Example: A creature has two instances of “Cumulative upkeep—Pay 1 life.” The creature has no age counters, and both cumulative upkeep abilities trigger. When the first ability resolves, the controller adds a counter and then chooses to pay 1 life. When the second ability resolves, the controller adds another counter and then chooses to pay an additional 2 life.
705. Flipping a Coin
705.1. To flip a coin for an object that cares whether a player wins or loses the flip, the affected player flips the coin and calls “heads” or “tails.” If the call matches the result, that player wins the flip. Otherwise, the player loses the flip. Only the player who flips the coin wins or loses the flip; no other players are involved.
705.2. To flip a coin for an object that cares whether the coin comes up heads or tails, each affected player flips a coin without making a call. No player wins or loses this kind of flip.
705.3. A coin used in a flip must be a two-sided object with easily distinguished sides and equal likelihood that either side lands face up. If the coin that’s being flipped doesn’t have an obvious “heads” or “tails,” designate one side to be “heads,” and the other side to be “tails.” Other methods of randomization may be substituted for flipping a coin as long as there are two possible outcomes of equal likelihood and all players agree to the substitution. For example, the player may roll an even-sided die and call “odds” or “evens,” or roll an even-sided die and designate that “odds” means “heads” and “evens” means “tails.”
Nowhere does the ability or rules indicate that Minotaurs CU cost cares if there is a winner or a loser, it just tells you to flip a coin unrelated and unconnected to anything else. If the rules take time to define what a coin is, they can take time to say "If an ability simply says to flip a coin, it has a winner and loser."
"705.1. To flip a coin for an object that cares whether a player wins or loses the flip, the affected player flips the coin and calls “heads” or “tails.” If the call matches the result, that player wins the flip. Otherwise, the player loses the flip. Only the player who flips the coin wins or loses the flip; no other players are involved."
Minotaur is the source of the flip. Minotaur is an object that cares whether a player wins or loses.
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