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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Here's a situation that actually occurred to me today:

Player A controls Serra Avatar (at 11 life), Stalking Vengeance, and Bloodfire Colossus. They pop the colossus. Does Stalking Vengeance trigger for Serra Avatar dying?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Yes, it will trigger.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't have much time before.

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603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger.

Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability “Whenever a creature dies, you gain 1 life.” Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact’s ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner’s graveyard at the same time as the creatures.


So, yes, even though both are leaving the battlefield at the same time, it will still trigger and cause the Angel to deal damage equal to its current power of 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:41 am 
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Ah, I thought they might not be dying "at the same time" because the Avatar wouldn't die until the player's life has been reduced below 6, which meant damage was already done, which meant the Vengeance was already dead. Sort of a second-pass "whoops Serra Avatar, we missed you the first time around, now get to the graveyard you silly goose".

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Temjen wrote:
Ah, I thought they might not be dying "at the same time" because the Avatar wouldn't die until the player's life has been reduced below 6, which meant damage was already done, which meant the Vengeance was already dead. Sort of a second-pass "whoops Serra Avatar, we missed you the first time around, now get to the graveyard you silly goose".

Basically, all the damage is dealt simultaneously, and then, after the ability finishes resolving, state-based actions check to see if any creatures have damage marked on them greater than or equal to their toughness. By the time this check is made, the Avatar is already a 5/5.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Ah, that makes sense. Damage dealt to a player reduces life total immediately, but damage dealt to creatures doesn't kill them until SBEs make a sweep and check to see if they died. Thanks.

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