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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:35 am 
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Russ1981 wrote:
razorborne wrote:
Russ1981 wrote:
I hope this question hasn't been asked already, but it probably has. I have a question about planeswalkers since I'm new to using them. I know planeswalkers aren't considered creatures, so they can't be destroyed normally, but they seem to be somewhere in between creatures and players if I'm not mistaken. The rules say I can't target a planeswalker with non-combat damage directly, but I can redirect damage that would normally be sent to an opponent as the spell resolves. My question is how would I formally declare the misdirection in a tournament setting?

in terms of tournament practice, you can just say something like "bolt your planeswalker" and it'll be unambiguous. technically the damage is redirected as it's being dealt, so until then you don't have to commit to it and your spell is technically targeting the player. if you want to be sneaky, you can say "bolt, targeting you?" but if you do I think you probably should follow it up with a request for responses so they know that once they pass back you have some effects, in this case a non-obvious redirect. this can be useful if you fear counterspells, for instance, to not give them undue information about your intent.

:duel:


Sounds simple enough, it seemed like a silly question but I just had to be sure. So to sum it up, target the player, and after they accept it but before the damage goes on the stack, declare redirection. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure if it would cause confusion.

to be clear, the damage doesn't go on the stack. combat damage used to, which is probably how you picked up the term, but now even that doesn't. you declare the redirection as the spell resolves.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:16 pm 
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If I cast a Flameshadow Conjuring when I control a Starfield of Nyx and three other enchantments, will it trigger itself giving me the option to create a copy of it for when it enters the battlefield? :incognito: (ignore that signature down there, I have no ulterior motives for posting this question)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm 
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Edacade wrote:
If I cast a Flameshadow Conjuring when I control a Starfield of Nyx and three other enchantments, will it trigger itself giving me the option to create a copy of it for when it enters the battlefield? :incognito: (ignore that signature down there, I have no ulterior motives for posting this question)

Yes, it will trigger itself.

Comp Rules wrote:
603.6b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is on the battlefield (and not before then). The permanent is never on the battlefield with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is on the battlefield, however (see rule 603.6e).
Example: If an effect reads “All lands are creatures” and a land card is played, the effect makes the land card into a creature the moment it enters the battlefield, so it would trigger abilities that trigger when a creature enters the battlefield. Conversely, if an effect reads “All creatures lose all abilities” and a creature card with an enters-the-battlefield triggered ability enters the battlefield, that effect will cause it to lose its abilities the moment it enters the battlefield, so the enters-the-battlefield ability won’t trigger.


This same situation came up with the Theros Gods, and it had a fun corner case where triggers would occur, but replacement effects wouldn't.
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/ ... nd-evolve/
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/ ... ttlefield/

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:46 pm 
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If I control a Doubling Season and cast Endless One for X=5, will it enter the battlefield with five +1/+1 counters or with ten +1/+1 counters? :incognito: (This also has no ulterior motives, what even are you implying sir or madam?)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:52 pm 
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Edacade wrote:
If I control a Doubling Season and cast Endless One for X=5, will it enter the battlefield with five +1/+1 counters or with ten +1/+1 counters? :incognito: (This also has no ulterior motives, what even are you implying sir or madam?)

Okay, there's no way a Rules Advisor doesn't know the answer to that question, but I'll play along.

It enters the battlefield with ten counters.
Comp Rules wrote:
121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being “placed” on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object entering the battlefield with counters on it as a result of a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:24 pm 
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I control two Spiteful Visions and an Underworld Dreams. My opponent controls four planeswalkers with various numbers of loyalty counters on each (we'll call them Planeswalkers A thru D). On his draw step, my opponent told me I had to choose the same planeswalker for redirection of the damage for each permanent dealing damage (like if I redirect damage from one Visions trigger to his Planeswalker A, all triggers from that Visions have to be redirected to Planeswalker A, as opposed to choosing to redirect three triggers from the same permanent among each of Planeswalkers A, B, and D). Is that true? :incognito: (Guh, stop accusing me of having ulterior motives...there's no way this would help Rules Q&A become a forum anyways. I mean, whaaaat? 8I I said nothing about what you think I said something about.)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:58 pm 
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Each instance of damage can be redirected to whichever planeswalkers you like or not redirected at all


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:58 pm 
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I control a Bloodlord of Vaasgoth and an Essence of the Wild. Damage has been dealt to an opponent this turn. I cast a Vampire creature spell. Do I get a 6/6 Essence of the Wild or a 9/9 (thanks to three +1/+1 counters) Essence of the Wild? :incognito: (This one actually doesn't have an ulterior motive to it. The others were...uh...also missing ulterior motives...)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:56 am 
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I see what you did there; you get a 9/9 Essence of the Wild. And a :cookie:.

You have two replacement effects here: Bloodthirst and Essence. Normally when applying multiple replacement effects you get to choose which to apply first, but there's a special rule (originally written specifically for Essence of the Wild!) that says that if you're applying multiple replacement effects and any of them cause an object to become a copy of something else, you need to apply that one first. So you apply the Essence's replacement first.

Now, if this was a normal bloodthirst creature like Gorehorn Minotaurs, that'd be the end of the story, because turning the creature into a copy of the Essence would remove the bloodthirst ability, so there'd be no more effects to apply and you'd get a 6/6 Essence. But the reason this particular spell has bloodthirst is because the Bloodlord granted it to it, and that effect still exists and is applied to the spell, so you have a bloodthirsty Essence. Damage has been dealt to your opponent, so the replacement is applied and you end up with a 9/9 Essence.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:03 am 
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What happens if I use the ability of Mind Raker and the like to put my opponent's cards from exile back into their graveyard with Leyline of the Void in play? I assume it keeps the card exiled permanently and I still get the benefit? If so, that would be a pretty useful combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:28 am 
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Russ1981 wrote:
What happens if I use the ability of Mind Raker and the like to put my opponent's cards from exile back into their graveyard with Leyline of the Void in play? I assume it keeps the card exiled permanently and I still get the benefit? If so, that would be a pretty useful combo.
yes.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:32 am 
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I thought so, thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:45 am 
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I see what you did there; you get a 9/9 Essence of the Wild. And a :cookie:.

You have two replacement effects here: Bloodthirst and Essence. Normally when applying multiple replacement effects you get to choose which to apply first, but there's a special rule (originally written specifically for Essence of the Wild!) that says that if you're applying multiple replacement effects and any of them cause an object to become a copy of something else, you need to apply that one first. So you apply the Essence's replacement first.

Now, if this was a normal bloodthirst creature like Gorehorn Minotaurs, that'd be the end of the story, because turning the creature into a copy of the Essence would remove the bloodthirst ability, so there'd be no more effects to apply and you'd get a 6/6 Essence. But the reason this particular spell has bloodthirst is because the Bloodlord granted it to it, and that effect still exists and is applied to the spell, so you have a bloodthirsty Essence. Damage has been dealt to your opponent, so the replacement is applied and you end up with a 9/9 Essence.


Well, I was hoping to see mentions of Layers 1 and 6, but this explanation is good enough.

Thanks everybody who answered my questions. I knew the answers to each of them, I just wanted to see what the average response time was here. :incognito: And then decided to throw a sort of stumper out there at the end, which might have skewed things a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:36 pm 
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Edacade wrote:
Well, I was hoping to see mentions of Layers 1 and 6, but this explanation is good enough.

Thanks everybody who answered my questions. I knew the answers to each of them, I just wanted to see what the average response time was here. :incognito: And then decided to throw a sort of stumper out there at the end, which might have skewed things a bit.
Glad to see I meet your standards. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:49 pm 
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Glad to see I meet your standards. ;)


:P You imply I have standards.

I'm one of those people who really only asks rules questions to confirm that they were right in the first place. :incognito: Although occasionally I do get mixed up on things. Short of knowing exactly which rule I need to reference, the CR is usually more of a maze than a helpful source in those situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:55 am 
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Since we now have a full forum for rules discussion, this thread is no longer needed. I've removed it from General and copied all the questions out to populate the new Rules Central forum.

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