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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:52 pm 
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Thanks for the comment Rattleclaw. It's always nice to have these conversations, and I definitely have some more things to say after hearing what you wrote. (Sorry, I don't know how to to the quote boxes, so bear with me.)

You expressed some concern for a mana base which plays Sunblade Elf and Consul's Lieutenant. Admittedly, a hand which has only Sunblade Elf on turn 1 and a Consul's Lieutenant on turn 2 doesn't exactly work out, but it's very rare that that is the only progression that a hand in this deck can make. There is a lot of decision over what 1-drop and 2-drop you should play out of any given hand, and you can usually opt to play an Anointer of Champions over the Elf if you know that you want to be playing a Lieutenant on turn 2, and sometimes you will just be able to play a Troll over the Lieutenant on turn 2, and the impact on your curve turns out to be very low. The mana base doesn't often back you into a corner.

You also expressed a like for Knight of the Pilgrim's Road over Stalwart Aven. I definitely see where this is coming from, and honestly, I dislike both, but I have a much more fundamental problem with the Knight. It trades with just about every playable 2-drop in this format and trades down with a lot of the important removal in black and red: Twin Bolt, Fiery Impulse, and Reave Soul. The card is a decent threat, but in general, sitting on the other side of the table, it's the one I most want to see. The Aven isn't great either, but at least it represents 2 damage in the air during most turns, and there isn't a lot of removal that kills it, and it will consistently renown for Valeron Wardens.

You also expressed a dislike for Vryn Wingmare. You are right that it dies to a lot of the removal in this format and interacts badly with thopters, but it's a 2 power evasive creature, and is essentially a must-kill against control, since it just makes every one of your spells very inefficient. Delaying a Languish for a turn is a huge deal as well, since that is one of the best ways to win against this deck, and getting an entire extra big attack means that when it comes time to commit threats in the aftermath, your opponent is going to be at a lower life total, and you will need to do less to reduce that to zero. While the deck does have Wildsize which it does want to cast on turn 3, there is still no reason not to cast it on turn 3, the Wingmare is just another option, and the decision tree will only happen when you have both in hand. My build of the deck is likely only to play 7-8 noncreature spells in its final form, so in general, it will almost always hurt your opponent more than you, and even if they have the removal for it, they will generally fall behind in tempo.

Also, as for the 2-drops, while Topan Freeblade is the easiest to cast of the bunch, it's also the least powerful (unless you include Relic Seeker.) When you are the aggressive deck, vigilance will only matter against the small subset of decks that are actually more aggressive than you are. With Undercity Troll, the threat of activation alone means that it will almost always go unblocked on turn three, giving your opponent no opportunity to trade their creatures. Finally, Consul's Lieutenant is just extremely pushed, and this is probably the deck where it's at its best. Nothing can touch it in combat for several turns most of the time, and it passively pumps your entire team. Even with mana in mind, it's a card that I could never cut.

Also, you mentioned Llanowar Empath as a possible inclusion over Juggernaut, but I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree with that line. The problem is mainly that Llanowar Empath has very poor stats, and spending your turn 4 playing something that isn't a big threat is likely to squander mana. Overall, I've found Juggernaut to be very good in this deck, and it has earned my respect enough to earn a permanent place in my deck. It's easy to cast, it's a big threat, and without it, your curve is likely to get a little bit unbalanced.

You also mentioned the exact concern I had with Rogue's Passage at first. It does make your mana worse in a deck that already has tight mana, but as for me, I'm not playing any GG costs at all, besides Outland Colussus, which gives you plenty of time to find the mana, and green ends up behaving like a large splash. The way that three copies of a card works out statistically is that you will draw a little bit less than one a game on average, and that is perfect for Rogue's Passage in my opinion.

Thanks again for responding. I'm glad to see that we agree at least on many the central cards and the fundamentals of the deck.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:52 pm 
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Okay, so from my early testing with the renown archetype, I have made some conclusions about some of the cards that people will be trying to play and some conclusions about the archetype as a whole.

The archetype is obviously pretty aggressive, curve is a big deal, most builds should be playing a few 1-drops and a few more 2-drops.
On that note, Anointer of Champions should probably see play. It's good for making combat with your renown creatures particularly difficult. It shouldn't necessarily be a full three-of, but some copies should almost always make the cut. I toyed with Elite Vanguard, but I don't really think it's good enough. It just gets outclassed far too easily. Kytheon is also obviously great, so that's something that you should always play. Finally, there's Sunblade Elf, which is just an excellent card, and might just be the best reason to be playing this archetype. The Elf should be a three-of in every list.
As for the 2-drops, Undercity Troll is awesome. Every version of this archetype should absolutely play all three. Same with Consul's Lieutenant. Depending on how aggressive you want to be, it can even be correct to play some number of Topan Freeblades, especially since 2-drop renown creatures are very good with Valeron Wardens.

As for some of the other creatures:

I tried Nissa, and I actually don't really think that she's good enough. She is a form of reach, but I find Rogue's Passage to do the job much better. Stalwart Aven is interesting, and I could definitely see playing a copy or two as a low opportunity cost evasive creature with good stats, but it's nothing exciting, and it's unlikely that four copies is the right number. Vryn Wingmare is another interesting choice. The deck is very creature-dense and making all of your opponent's removal less efficient is a great way to win games against more controlling decks, plus the body is a very decent way to put evasive pressure on your opponent. I find it likely that it is correct to play both copies. Valeron Wardens is quite good. When you play a large number of 2-drop renown creatures, it will cantrip fairly easily, and with combat tricks or even just against slower starts, it can renown itself and give you a big 3/5 as well as draw you a card. This is something I think should be played as a two or three-of in most of these decks. Citadel Castellan is just great, so three copies there. The deck is aggressive, so the top end should be sparse, but there are definitely some great options. Kytheon's Irregulars is amazing, so the two copies of that should go right in. Patron of the Valiant and Outland Colossus are massive finishers in this deck, and I think I could settle on playing two of each. The Patron's counter ability is extremely relevant in this deck and it's well-statted, and the Colossus is just a big deal. I've even been trying Juggernaut, as it's great with tricks and Rogue's Passage and just generally is a big threat.

As for everything else:

Wildsize is excellent in this deck. It's almost always a two for one, and it even gives trample so that your renown creatures still trigger. Definitely the combat trick of choice. I've tried a couple of removal spells in this deck. The one I settled on is Suppression Bonds, as it gets rid of a blocker no questions asked. I also tried Celestial Flare, but it was a little too hard to land reliably and just didn't pay off well. Wild Instincts does a similar job to Suppression Bonds, but just does it a little worse. There are even matchups where the Instincts would be better for its ability to add 2 damage to your subsequent attack, but I am certain that the Bonds is a better choice. Finally, Rogue's Passage has turned out to be great in this deck. It is a very easy way to get reach and can present a very quick, hard to interact with clock with any of the larger ground creatures in the deck. This is a clear three-of for me after playing with it a bit. I could also see Grasp of the Hieromancer being a beating in this deck, but I haven't tested it so I can't speak to it. I also tried Hixus, and I think that he's a trap card. When you just want to be attacking with everything every turn, he's little more than a 4/4 for 5, but I suspect that people will try to play him anyway because he is objectively powerful.

This is a classic creature beatdown deck, and I've been doing most of my grinding with it. It seems strong enough and surprisingly synergistic.


Mind posting your decklist? :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:15 pm 
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Alright. Here is my decklist for the Renown deck as of right now. I don't actually have all of the cards, so this is technically theoretical, but here is how I would build it if I had everything.

3x Sunblade Elf
2x Anointer of Champions
1x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Consul's Lieutenant
2x Topan Freeblade
3x Undercity Troll
3x Citadel Castellan
3x Valeron Wardens
1x Vryn Wingmare
2x Juggernaut
2x Kytheon's Irregulars
2x Patron of the Valiant
2x Outland Colossus

4x Wildsize
3x Suppression Bonds

10x Plains
5x Forest
4x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Sunpetal Grove
3x Rogue's Passage


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:51 pm 
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Alright. Here is my decklist for the Renown deck as of right now. I don't actually have all of the cards, so this is technically theoretical, but here is how I would build it if I had everything.

3x Sunblade Elf
2x Anointer of Champions
1x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Consul's Lieutenant
2x Topan Freeblade
3x Undercity Troll
3x Citadel Castellan
3x Valeron Wardens
1x Vryn Wingmare
2x Juggernaut
2x Kytheon's Irregulars
2x Patron of the Valiant
2x Outland Colossus

4x Wildsize
3x Suppression Bonds

10x Plains
5x Forest
4x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Sunpetal Grove
3x Rogue's Passage


Nice. Some thoughts:

Archangel should probably be in.
Haven't been impressed by Valeron Wardens so far. I know it should be good but it just hasn't been for me. This deck wants to be agressive but wardens is kinda defensive.
Probably running 2x Rogue's Passage seems enough. Allows you to run another plains for those double whites and Irregulars tap ability. You never want more than 1 Passage anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:09 pm 
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Aaand... I forgot Archangel of Tithes again. +1 Archangel, -1 Juggernaut.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:14 pm 
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Yeah Nevious, you're actually probably right about Passage. I think now that two is probably the right number, but I find Wardens to be great. It lets you get card advantage at a fairly low opportunity cost, which is something that aggressive decks love. It's a lot like Abbot of Keral Keep in that way.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:45 pm 
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Ok after some testing (just ~5 games for now) I tweaked your list a bit:

- 2x Juggernaut (Cutting this in favor of addition 2-drops.)
+ 2x Topan Freeblade (Not having a 2-drop on turn 2 is very bad in this deck. I dont think 8 is enough. Knight of the White Orchid may also be worth testing.)

- 1x Valeron Wardens (As I said they haven't been so great for me. If they turn out to be great in further testing ill bring it back in.)
+ 1x Vryn Wingmare (Delays board clears by a turn which is great. Bad against thopters though. Need to see how many thopters are around.)

- 1x Supression Bonds (Didn't really need them yet)
+ 1x Archangel

- 1x Rogues Passage
+ 1x Plains


So far the deck has been really strong. Wins are fast too.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:05 pm 
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Cool Nevius!

I've tried Knight of the White Orchid and it's not that impressive. It's almost always just a 2/2 first strike for 2 that is fairly hard to cast. I am definitely of the opinion that Topan Freeblade is better.
Tweaking is fine and even expected of course. Do whatever you think makes the deck better. In all fairness I haven't actually played this deck card for card and I've been playing stand ins for the time being, so it's great to have someone who actually has everything to test it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:47 am 
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Hey guys. I played a whole bunch (20+ games) vs the ai to grind out some coins with a g/w renown deck today. It's mostly hakeem's list, but I didn't have all the cards so I swapped some cards and tested some other random ones. I am really enjoying the playstyle. It has the early aggro and then some titanic finishers.

I have Knight of the White Orchid in there and it is not worth it over the other two drops. I'm talking about the Undercity Troll, Topan Freeblade, or the Consul's Lieutenant. I manged to use the ability about 3 times, but I would have preferred the other guys almost every time. One Rogue's Passage seems to be the right number. You never want two in play. I didn't test Primal Bellow, but I did have mix of Might of the Masses and Wildsize. The trample from Wildsize actually mattered a few times so I would say it's worth trying out. I didn't have any Anointer of Champions, but it seems like it would be pretty good. On the other hand that spot was probably taken by Grasp of the Hieromancer. Grasp is legit as hell. You want it in every game you play. I had a one of Blessed Spirits, but it is too cute without a heavier enchantment style. Stick with something else. I've enjoyed Sunblade Elf. It's almost always a 2/2 and has later game utility. I am probably going to cut some Elite Vanguard to test the Anointer.

Well that's all for now. Hopefully it was readable.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:09 am 
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I'm still playing this deck off and on and I've made the following changes:

-1 Might of the Masses
-2 Vryn Wingmare
-1 Archangel of Tithes

+3 Valeron Wardens
+1 Wildsize

Archangel is great but a bit hard to cast. Wingmare was situationally good but I'm seeing a lot of Twin Bolts lately so I've been trying to get away from X/1s. I am still playing Lieutenant, though, because the upside is too high.

Wardens aren't fantastic but they are decent and having a copy of Wildsize to trigger them or provide trample for Might of the Masses has been good.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:37 pm 
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Missing both colussus :( wish I could run this deck but I feel like they are the biggest wincon for this deck.

On another note, as a new guy to these forums just wanted to say you guys have some damn good detailed discussions. Quite mind blowing to be honest how detailed you guys get. A+


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:59 pm 
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1 drop (5)
2x Anointer of Champions
1x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2x Sunblade Elf

2 drop (13)
3x Consul's Lieutenant
2x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Reprisal - flex slot. You can exchange this for the +1/+1 enchantment that taps a dude when you attack or something else more relevant if you want.
4x Topan Freeblade
2x Undercity Troll

3 drop (10)
3x Citadel Castellan
3x Valeron Wardens
4x Wildsize

4 drop (5)
1x Archangel of Tithes
2x Kytheon's Irregulars
2x Suppression Bonds

5 drop (1)
1x Outland Colossus

Lands (26)
2x Evolving Wilds
6x Forest
12x Plains
4x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Sunpetal Grove

Much more aggressive and white heavy list. This deck has super explosive opening hands and focuses on curving out early to apply pressure.

Test here http://playtest.tappedout.net/11-08-15-deR-wg-renown/

p.s. has anyone tested out the 6/5 mythic that fetches a 3-drop or lower? He seems like good tech for certain match ups. I'm also curious as to how effective Tragic Arrogance could be in G/W renown as a way to beat elves/thopters. You'd probably want to be more mid-range for that type of strategy though.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:22 pm 
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1 drop (5)
2x Anointer of Champions
1x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2x Sunblade Elf

2 drop (13)
3x Consul's Lieutenant
2x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Reprisal - flex slot. You can exchange this for the +1/+1 enchantment that taps a dude when you attack or something else more relevant if you want.
4x Topan Freeblade
2x Undercity Troll

3 drop (10)
3x Citadel Castellan
3x Valeron Wardens
4x Wildsize

4 drop (5)
1x Archangel of Tithes
2x Kytheon's Irregulars
2x Suppression Bonds

5 drop (1)
1x Outland Colossus

Lands (26)
2x Evolving Wilds
6x Forest
12x Plains
4x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Sunpetal Grove

Much more aggressive and white heavy list. This deck has super explosive opening hands and focuses on curving out early to apply pressure.

Test here http://playtest.tappedout.net/11-08-15-deR-wg-renown/

p.s. has anyone tested out the 6/5 mythic that fetches a 3-drop or lower? He seems like good tech for certain match ups. I'm also curious as to how effective Tragic Arrogance could be in G/W renown as a way to beat elves/thopters. You'd probably want to be more mid-range for that type of strategy though.


Reprisal is a good idea. I actually think its much better than Suppresion Bonds in this deck.
The mythic could be worth trying out. Allthough he does make the deck slower.
Your deck seems good allthough I would def run all 3 Undercity Trolls. (Probably cut 1 Bonds for it)
Running 2x Outland Colossus and at least 1x Rogues Passage seems too good to pass up.
Also I feel that 6 tapped lands is too much for a deck like this that wants to curve out.

I've been playing lots of GW aggro/renown lately and think it's one of the best decks. Trying to find the optimal way to build it. I think I'm gonna try out Reprisal next.
I tried Hakeems list but actually found Hieromancer's Grasp to not be great: It opens you up for 2-for-1, makes their bounce spells better and is dead in your hand if you dont have a creature in play.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:47 am 
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[quote="[url=http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?p=340147#p340147]

p.s. has anyone tested out the 6/5 mythic that fetches a 3-drop or lower? He seems like good tech for certain match ups. I'm also curious as to how effective Tragic Arrogance could be in G/W renown as a way to beat elves/thopters. You'd probably want to be more mid-range for that type of strategy though.[/quote]

Well I've just created an account to suggest you that :) 40. Post is about him but it's been overlooked.
It really Performs well both defensive and offensive wise. If you already have 6 mana it means you're probably in need of some bodies and defense, this bear grants that.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:23 pm 
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So...I will not be posting my Renouned Aggro list because I always get shot down. I will only be posting RESULTS and detailed opening hands from now on. Here we go...87.5% win percentage!
Speed 4.5
Strenght 3
Control 3
Synergy 1.5

Rank 1-10 {6 Total players, 4 wins, 1 loss, and 1 concession}
WG Aggro I
BG Elves I
WBG Elves I
WB Aggro I
RG Midrange I
???? I

Rank 11-20 {1 Total player, 1 win, 0 loss, 0 concession}
RG Aggro I

Rank 21-30 {1 Total player, 1 win, 0 loss, 0 concession}
R Goblin Aggro I

Rank 31-40 {1 Total player, 1 win, 0 loss, 0 concession}
WG Midrange I

Some of the mulligan choices I reasoned with.
.....................................................................................................................................
//Consul's Lieutenant/Citadel Castellan/Valeron Wardens/Kytheon's Irregulars/Hixus, Prison Warden PLAY
///Elite Vanguard/Elite Vanguard/Citadel Castellan/Archangel of Tithes DRAW
////Kytheon, Hero of Akros/Consul's Lieutenant/Citadel Castellan DRAW
//Undercity Troll/Valeron Wardens/Evolutionary Leap/Might of the Masses/Might of the Masses PLAY <<< Lost
//Elite Vanguard/Consul's Lieutenant/Citadel Castellan/Vryn Wingmare/Reprisal DRAW
///Kytheon, Hero of Akros/Consul's Lieutenant/Citadel Castellan/Might of the Masses PLAY
///Kytheon, Hero of Akros/Consul's Lieutenant/Knight of the White Orchid/Undercity Troll PLAY
///Elite Vanguard/Might of the Masses/Might of the Masses/Reprisal DRAW
//Citadel Castellan/Citadel Castellan/Might of the Masses/Might of the Masses/Reprisal DRAW

Note: The "???? I" guy was some noob who mulligan to 1...stayed for a bit...I dropped a Kytheon a turn 1 and they left. Never got to see their deck. At the top you will see "4-1-1", this means I've won 4 games, lost 1, and the opponent conceded mid-game; I don't know if they could've still won so I kept it neutral. It should be easy to understand. Also, I hit the 500 Duels mark and got the "slauger achievement".

EDIT: Translated my "hieroglyphics" into English by Hakeem928's request. :cookie:


Last edited by InFaMoUsGeMiNi on Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:01 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:47 pm 
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You get shot down because you don't ever discuss anything. You post a list, people critique it (which comes with the territory), then you get all defensive and say "absolutely not" to any suggestions.

As far as the content of your post, it is basically hieroglyphics. Excuse me for not reading any of it. Nice diary, though.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:23 pm 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
You get shot down because you don't ever discuss anything. You post a list, people critique it (which comes with the territory), then you get all defensive and say "absolutely not" to any suggestions.

As far as the content of your post, it is basically hieroglyphics. Excuse me for not reading any of it. Nice diary, though.


Just build and play it!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:25 pm 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
You get shot down because you don't ever discuss anything. You post a list, people critique it (which comes with the territory), then you get all defensive and say "absolutely not" to any suggestions.

As far as the content of your post, it is basically hieroglyphics. Excuse me for not reading any of it. Nice diary, though.


Just build and play it!


FEED HIM


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:26 pm 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
You get shot down because you don't ever discuss anything. You post a list, people critique it (which comes with the territory), then you get all defensive and say "absolutely not" to any suggestions.

As far as the content of your post, it is basically hieroglyphics. Excuse me for not reading any of it. Nice diary, though.


Just build and play it!


FEED HIM


I even Regen for free!

On another note, Rum and Duels is fun!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:05 pm 
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So...I will not be posting my Renouned Aggro list because I always get shot down. I will only be posting RESULTS and detailed opening hands from now on. Here we go...87.5% win percentage!
Speed 4.5
Strenght 3
Control 3
Synergy 1.5

I've been fiddling with my decks to get behind the AI deck ratings. I'm pretty sure it simply translates the total mana costs of your deck into speed, the number of removal and disruption into control and now the funniest thing: It seems to add the total power and toughness of every creature and calls that the deck's strength. That's why my weenie decks get 3-5 stars in strength, while my Gruul Midrange gets one, just because there are less creatures in it... I had a good laugh when I discovered this, it is so backwards :D
I don't even wanna know what algorithm is responsible for the synergy number. I certainly don't think this deckbuilder has the faintest idea what cards go well together or what the decks are supposed to do.


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