I used the ability on D3. I was mindslaved by Mown though into someone else. Possibly, as fel hypothesized, someone of the mafia alignment.
And mafia totally misplayed by going ham rather than taking it slow and steady. Netting not one but two scum in what happened after D2 hurt. And I'm town.
We had a break down of everyone's roles thanks to your genius. Except Hello World, who we killed immediately. It was totally unreasonable to account for the fact the investigator was also a voteblocker, role blocker and immune to NKs.
We lost, yeah. But stop pretending like there was some massive oversight we missed.
What about sharazad? Going by the card effect That was pretty high in the list of effects that could stop you.
Also killing me after giving me a whole night phase to use my power was a bit reckless.
And rubik had two abilities on the card, so expecting him to be some sort of jack of all trades with a total of 2 or 3 abilities that he could use once eack wasn't that farfetched.
Joined: Sep 25, 2013 Posts: 5149 Location: Toronto, Ontario
Identity: Spider-Man
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Here's the full design file on the game:
Zinger2099 wrote:
Roles (In no particular order)
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Players: felbatista (formerly Elijin) Card:Reya Dawnbringer Alignment:Town Ability (Night, 1 Use): Target a player in the Graveyard to return them to the Battlefield at the beginning of the following Day.
Special Considerations: If a player is targeted by this ability and also targeted by another revival ability (Thallid) on the same Night, this ability takes priority. If however a player is targeted by this ability and is also targeted by an exile ability (Deathrite Shaman), the exile ability takes priority. Player is revived with the same number of uses remaining for all of their abilities that they had at the time of death (Exception: Fallen Ideal).
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Player: Popular Pariah (formerly storyteller) Card:Deathrite Shaman Alignment:Mafia Ability (Night, 5 Uses): Once per Night you may target a player to kill them, or to protect them from being killed (your choice). Ability (Night, 1 Use): Target player in the Graveyard is exiled, and may never return to the Battlefield. Mafia Chat:Opponent's Hand
Special Considerations: Exile ability takes priority over revival abilities (See Reya Dawnbringer).
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Player: storyteller (formerly NeoSilk) Card:Evil Twin Alignment:Mafia Ability (Night, 1 Use): Target player is killed. You gain any abilities the target possessed.
New Abilities (Gained by killing razorborne)
Ability (Day, Passive): At the beginning of each Day you are told who has which Cards (this ability will only trigger if the information has changed since the previous Day). Ability (Day, 1 Use): Target a player to learn what abilities they have. You may then choose to reduce all remaining uses of one of their abilities to zero (even if the ability had unlimited uses).
Special Considerations: Evil Twin's ability to kill and gain abilities are two separate clauses. If the targeted player is somehow protected from the kill, the Evil Twin still gains the abilities. Abilities gained have full charges of uses remaining, even if they had none left on the player copied.
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Player: KingdomofDominaria (formerly Just_a_Cleric) Card:Thallid Alignment:Town Ability (Day, Passive): At the beginning of each Day, you gain a Spore counter (currently has 3 Spore counters). Ability (Night, 2 Uses): You must spend 3 Spore counters to use this ability. Return target Town-Aligned player from the Graveyard to the Battlefield as a 1/1 green Saproling creature token with no abilities.
Special Considerations: Thallid's revival ability can only target a Town-Aligned player in the graveyard; any other target is invalid. Other revival abilities and exile abilities take priority over this ability (See Reya Dawnbringer). The revived player comes back with the following role instead of their own:
Design Note: I purposefully gave the revival ability of this role the Town alignment restriction because Reya Dawnbringer's ability was already present in the game and I thought it would be too much if the Mafia somehow got their hands on two revival abilities.
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Player: NeoSilk (formerly altimis) Card:Taniwha Alignment:Town Ability (Day, Passive): At the beginning of each even numbered Day (Day 2, 4, 6, etc), you phase out, and are treated as though you do not exist until the beginning of the next odd numbered Day. You may continue to post during this time, though you will have no direct effect on the game.
Special Considerations: While phased the following conditions apply to Taniwha: 1. Nothing Taniwha does will be acknowledged by the me, up to and including breaking the rules. I will ignore his presence entirely. 2. Nothing that requires a chosen player or targeted player will hit him. Such abilities will comes up as an invalid target (see special rules below). Things that don't require a chosen player or target would still affect him though (example: Scrambleverse ability would still hit him while phased). 3. The required number of votes to reach a majority is changed to reflect what it would be if he wasn't there (and in fact, he shouldn't even be put in the votecount). 4. He still counts as a living member of his team, that the other team must still eliminate to win.
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Player: Rubik (formerly 15377) Card:Skyshroud Elf Alignment:Town Ability (Day, Passive): Each Day you may choose one of the following abilities to use, provided you have uses remaining.
Day Ability Choice
Ability (Day, 2 Uses): Your votes count double for the remainder of the Day. Ability (Day, 2 Uses): Target player is blocked from making votes for the remainder of the Day. Ability (Day, 2 Uses): Choose a living player. You learn that player's alignment.
Ability (Night, Passive): Each Night you may choose one of the following abilities to use, provided you have uses remaining.
Night Ability Choice
Ability (Night, 2 Uses): Regenerate target Player. They are protected from being killed this Night. Ability (Night, 2 Uses): Choose a living player. If that player is targeted by any other abilities this Night, they are killed and cannot be regenerated (even if that ability would otherwise protect them from being killed). Otherwise, this ability has no effect. Ability (Night, 2 Uses): Target player is prevented from using any activated abilities this Night. Passive abilities are unaffected and their use of the ability is not expended if you block them in this way.
Special Considerations: Skyshroud Elf has two base abilities that are passive which allow for the player to chose an active sub-ability. Design Notes:
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Player: Urzasucks (formerly PariahKing) Card:Shahrazad Alignment:Town Ability (Day, 1 Use): Choose any number of living players. Only votes against those players are valid for the remainder of this Day.
Special Considerations: Votes placed against other players than those chosen by this role are ignored.
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Player: altimis (formerly Mown) Card:Crag Saurian Alignment:Town Ability (Day, Passive): Your votes do not count against the player who most recently voted for you; however, your votes count for double against all other players. Ability (Night, 2 Uses): Once per Night you may grant the following ability to the player who last voted you during the Day:
Granted Ability
Ability (Night, 1 Use): Target player is killed.
Special Considerations: Crag Saurian's ability to grant a kill happens instantly, even though it is a Night power (in this way it behaves like a day power). It doesn't require a target, it automatically seeks out the last player who voted him and gifts that player. They are not told who the gift comes from. Design Note: I decided to make Crag Saurian's ability happen instantly so that the player being granted the ability had the time to potentially use it the Night they received it.
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Player: Elijin (formerly Urzasucks) Card:Lord of the Pit Alignment:Mafia Ability (Day, Passive): Your votes are always worth exactly enough to bring the player you are voting for to being one vote away from a Lynch (L-1). If a Day would ever end without a Lynch, you die. Ability (Day, Passive): If you are alive on Day 7, Mafia wins the game. Mafia Chat:Opponent's Hand
Special Considerations: The first ability always puts the player he is voting for to L-1, and automatically adjusts itself to keep that player there even if other players unvote (example: if Player X requires 6 votes to lynch and has 1 vote on him, Lord of the Pit's vote would be worth 4, but if later that 1 vote is removed then Lord of the Pit's vote increases in value to 5). Basically, if anyone votes for a player who is already being voted by Lord of the Pit, then that player is lynched. The second ability reflects the alignment of the player, so if this role changes hands (example: Scrambleverse) to an opposing alignment, the ability changes to reflect the new alignment of the new player.
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Player: Mown (formerly Popular Pariah) Card:Mindslaver Alignment:Mafia Ability (Night, 1 Use): Target a player and choose another player. All abilities of the targeted player are redirected this Night to the chosen player, and votes made by the targeted player apply only to the chosen player on the following Day (if the chosen player yet lives). Mafia Chat:Opponent's Hand
Special Considerations: A redirect is not a roleblock, so the ability of the targeted player still functions (or fails to function) as normal, as if they targeted the chosen player themselves. The "chosen player" is not restricted to living players, on account of maybe redirecting a revival ability from one dead player to another. Design Note: The wording on this was a bit wonky (because of that "if that player yet lives" clause), which resulted in 15377 being unsure what to do when the chosen player was dead. Although I would have allowed KingdomofDominaria to vote whoever he wanted to on the following Day (because his redirection target was dead), I accept and support the interpretation 15377 made in disallowing KoD to vote.
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Player: razorborne (formerly Rubik) Card:Seer's Vision Alignment:Town Ability (Day, Passive): At the beginning of each Day you are told who has which Cards (this ability will only trigger if the information has changed since the previous Day). Ability (Day, 1 Use): Target a player to learn what abilities they have. You may then choose to reduce all remaining uses of one of their abilities to zero (even if the ability had unlimited uses).
Special Considerations: Evil Twin's card name does not change when he "gains" all the abilities of another card.
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Player: Just_a_Cleric (formerly felbatista) Card:Birthing Pod Alignment:Town Ability (Night, Unlimited Uses): Once per Night you may target a player to give them an extra use of all of their abilities. They are not told this gift comes from you.
Special Considerations: The targeted player may go above their full amount of uses through this ability.
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Player: Hello World Card:Fallen Ideal Alignment:Town Ability (Night, Passive): You may continue to use abilities while in the Graveyard as though you were on the Battlefield. Ability (Night, 1 Use): You may grant the following ability to target player of your choice (they are told it comes from you). The targeted player keeps the ability until they die or you die (whichever comes first). If you or the targeted player goes to the Graveyard, you regain 1 use of this ability.
Granted Ability
Ability (Day, Unlimited Uses): Choose a player. That player is blocked from additional voting or from using abilities for the remainder of the Day, and your votes are instead worth double. This does not remove any votes the chosen player has already placed, nor does it prevent them from Unvoting if they so chose.
Special Considerations: None. Design Note: Hello World came into the game late because of a required replacement of PariahKing. There was already 2 revival roles in play so I knew straight up that this would not be a revival role. Still I was unsure at first how to reflect Fallen Ideal's ability to return to the hand when put into the graveyard. I'm fairly proud of thinking outside the box in giving him an ability that he could still use from the Graveyard, without reviving himself.
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Player: 15377 (formerly Rubik) Card:Scrambleverse Alignment:Self Win Condition: Have zero uses remaining for any of your non-passive abilities OR survive to the end of the game. Ability (Day, 1 Use): All roles are randomly redistributed among living players. This ability only affects Card choices and Abilities; alignments do NOT change. Remaining uses of abilities are also unchanged (if there are 0 uses left, for example, the new player to receive the role still has 0 uses).
Special Considerations: Because this ability requires no target it will hit Taniwha even while phased. Design Notes: Holy hell where do I begin. I'll talk more about 15377, his chosen card (Skyshroud Elf), and his quick win via Scrambleverse in a separate post. Regarding Scrambleverse itself, I'm a little disappointed it happened so fast that some players had received a new role before they had even had a chance to view their original role and post in the game. In hindsight, I wish I had made Scrambleverse a Night ability. That is my only regret about this role. I do not regret including it in the game, despite the controversy it created, as the card is absolute chaos and thus the ability it granted should also be absolute chaos. This was a game about choice, and I wasn't going to deny a player the choice they wanted just because it would instil some chaos into my game.
Quote:
Player: PariahKing (formerly KingdomofDominaria) Card:Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker Alignment:Town Ability (Day, Passive): If you are voting for the player who is Lynched at the end of the Day, you gain 1 extra use of your roleblocking ability. If you placed the final vote that triggers a Lynch, instead you gain 1 extra use of your killing ability. Ability (Night, Passive): Each Night you may chose one of the following two abilities to use, provided that they still have uses remaining.
Ability Choice
Ability (Night, 3 Uses): Target a player to block them from using any abilities, passive or otherwise, this Night. Their use of the ability is not expended if you block them in this way. Ability (Night, 0 Uses): Kill target player. That player is then immediately Exiled, instead of going to the Graveyard.
Special Considerations: The killed player never hits the Graveyard, so abilities that trigger off that would not trigger (example: Fallen Ideal).
There's a few rules that aren't explicitly stated in the main roles. These rules aren't exactly secret, and can be freely told to players, they just aren't openly displayed. Those rules are: 1. Players can queue up abilities for phases in which they believe they might miss for some reason. 2. Day abilities happen instantly. Night abilities happen at the end of the phase (Exception: Taniwha). 3. Players can only use one ability per Day or Night phase. 4. If the order of abilities used at Night ever becomes important: kill abilities always happen last, roleblock abilities always happens first. 5. Players can go over the max number of uses for their abilities (Example: Birthing Pod). 6. Generally, if a player uses an ability but selects an invalid Target, the ability is not wasted. If on the other hand a player uses an ability and something blocks them (Example: Roleblocker), the use is expended. I don't inform players if they've been Roleblocked. 7. If a player is almost killed, but is saved by a Doctor, I tell them.
I'll post my thoughts on the game, some MVPs, and discuss 15377's quick win in another post when I have time later today.
Figured the gamble was either make it or break it. From what we knew, I figured that the chances were good enough. Not surprised the game didn't last when it failed.
The biggest mistake mafia made was, after suspecting that you could store up actions, not using that knowledge, or at the very least suspicion of it, to save one of either storyteller or Elijin. You know, instead of claiming my theories as incompetent.
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quotes wrote:
squinty_eyes: Alt, you have fantastic logic. And zero political prowess. CKY: Through a convoluted series of events involving three tons of garden gnomes and a pickup truck, Henderson’s Magikarp defeats the Deoxys terrorizing the city.
For anybody that didn't dive into the full design Zinger posted, or just hasn't yet, my win con was simply to have expended all my active abilities or survive until game end. When scrambleverse jumbled the board it shifted onto me with it's one use already spent, completing my win condition. It was hilarious and yet extremely boring all at the same time.
On Skyshroud Elf, while I think the take of the Elvish Swiss Army Knife was interesting in the multiple abilities and the win con was rather fun, I think with Scrambleverse being on the board, the card should have been kept a lot lower in power. Less power roles, more redirection and transformative powers.
On scrambleverse, I don't see why people are complaining about the effects of this card. To capture the spirit of the card you really only have a couple of options, jumble roles or jumble alignments. Somehow I think jumbling alignments would have really pissed some people off if it was used late game. I think the role was designed with the right intent, although I would have changed some of the effects (namely it hitting non-permanents and I probably would have excluded a phased out Taniwha too).
On Taniwha, while I can see from a design perspective why you would decide to have the player subject to non-targetive abilities when he's phased out, given how the rest of the role functions it just doesn't quite jive. Then again, neither does letting Taniwha continue to talk when he's phased out. But given the taboos on silent roles I can see why you wouldn't simply shunt a player out of the game for days at a time. I think a rewording on the phasing ability could have created the same effect, but resolved the questions surrounding being phased out. (something along the lines of on even days and nights you cannot use any abilities, cannot be the target of abilities, cannot vote, cannot be voted for, and do not count towards the majority threshold).
On Thalid and Mindslaver, because of the rule Zinger established before the game of invalid targets not expending abilities, when Mindslaver redirected Thalid to a non-town role, because his ability didn't expend, neither did his counters. As for the second half of the Mindslaver role, originally I was going to allow Thalid's votes to go through but I couldn't wrap my head around negating the second half of the ability just because the only valid target was dead (making them also an invalid target), so last minute I decided to take it as a full vote block.
I think that's pretty much it on role issues. Game play wise Mafia's only real major issue was being too hasty. I told Zinger before I had knowledge of the other roles of the game that I didn't disagree with mafia's decision to try to control the lynch with Pit and being outted in doing so, but I disagreed with their timing. It was much too early for such a play since they couldn't have knowledge of the ins and outs of the roles that early in the game. Conversely I felt Alt played a much too safe game, seemingly too afraid to take any chances even at the end of the game when it was apparent town was massively in control.
I agree that mafia made a mistake with doing the quick lynch so soon. I think now I've done it all with 'catching' two mafiates by being lynched It was an alright play, but should've been saved for a later day, or at least a later time at that day (by 'accident'). How they saved each other at the end of D1 was already raising a few eyebrows with me, but before I could say anything about it they did it against me and showed it to everyone.
The part about the open setup also kinda screwed mafia I think. The killing roles were known. Their owner was known by 1 (razor), there was a cop and someone who could give the cop more investigations. There were too many roles to kill and too few ways to do it. The moment someone died overnight that was not discussed with the town, it would've been pretty obvious who that was and he could be put to the test / be lynched. Which happened at the end.
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Moderator of the PbP-area. Creating and playing forum games and Mafia since 2004.
I was saving my NK for, and fully expcting, a Rubik (or a KOD) betrayal. Sure it might have dragged the game on, but keeping that ability open was a safety measure. I was playing defensively, because everyone was too eager to do the obvious. I just wanted time to think, but I kept getting rather rudely reprimanded. Nobody was confirmed town to me; NeoSilk was the closest thing to be town in my eyes but that wasn't until after I realized that my ability never targeted. I thought Mown was as well, until he actually voted for me D3. I would've expepcted him to give more of a fuss if he were town, something like asking why I thought he was town, or saying that I shouldn't trust him without proof. I dunno what I was looknig for, but he didn't do it.
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quotes wrote:
squinty_eyes: Alt, you have fantastic logic. And zero political prowess. CKY: Through a convoluted series of events involving three tons of garden gnomes and a pickup truck, Henderson’s Magikarp defeats the Deoxys terrorizing the city.
None of you are considering how pit lord worked. If there was a no lynch, I died. At 5 hours left in day 1 and well past my bedtime to continue watching the thread, there was no majority. I had to tip my hand, or risk dying to my own card conditions. There was no way for me to be sure enough players would be on in that 5 hours to secure a lynch (Sure, a true majority wass reached, but hindsight is 20/20). At that point we also didnt know how Zinger would display the votecount, and were hoping I could go by unnoticed. He stopped the votecount at the majority, and this wasnt the case.
Once my hand was tipped, it was use it or lose it. You can make all sorts of 'You shouldnt have done it' arguments, but ultimately we all know how paranoid the key players here are, and there's no reason I would have survived another day with a vote power like that. Not to mention once my ability was in the open like that, it was essentially a sure thing that Rubik would investigate me and turn up scum. We took a NK shot at Rubik N1. He came out standing, and that left me with no other play than to hammer and hope there was nothing silly. Our mistake was not accounting for how insanely OP the ex-neutral role was.
If it wasnt clear, I dont much mind that I didnt get revived by Thallid. It was a neat play on the role, and I tip my hat to Scar for not revealing it was town only, or that the revived player lacked their original power set. I do think it was lousy that the Mindslaver charge was spent, when the Thallid's was not.
@Hello World. We knew your card name. It didnt present as threatening, compared to the known investigator, and the ability to refresh people's charges. And its a moot point anyway, since your card functioned from the GY.
I knew you would die if there was no lynch D1. I said it multiple times that there would never be a NL day 1, because the one with the L-1 role would die and I would not have minded that at all. Your second paragraph is exactly what I was going to do D2 if you didn't kill me.
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Moderator of the PbP-area. Creating and playing forum games and Mafia since 2004.
I think it would've been better to just come out with it. It would've kept you alive for quite some time. It would've been the other risky play against what you did now. I don't think there was a best way here. I think the timing in D2 was just too soon.
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Moderator of the PbP-area. Creating and playing forum games and Mafia since 2004.
There just wasnt a way to play in the open with it while Rubik had daytime investigation powers. And since Rubik was apparently immune to NK several times, that compounds to 'There just wasnt a way to play in the open with it'
Yeah, your best bet was to make Rubik go towards other people and attempt to locate Pod ASAP and take him out. I'm 90% sure Rubik did claim that the investigations were limited. So if you could get rid of Pod, it was just the 1 day that you had to survive without being investigated.
I think most people would just ask you not to vote in D2 unless a target was found. I don't think you were in the spotlights D1, right? It's been a while and I forgot some stuff
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Moderator of the PbP-area. Creating and playing forum games and Mafia since 2004.
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