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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:15 pm 
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Are you drawing that much land from your 19-land deck that you always want to see this card?

Also, just think about the price you're paying for two damage. Shock costs one mana and one card. The first activation of Vortex costs two mana and two cards. Not exactly great value.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:16 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
In a 19 land deck, you rarely need more than 3 lands. Molten Vortex lets you do something with that 1/4th of your deck that is dead weight.


For Vortex to actually be worth it you still need to draw at least 5 lands in a 19 land deck and in a game where you also draw Vortex of course. If the game actually goes on for that long with this kind of deck, chances are you going to lose, with or without being able to trade your lands for Shock's. And a lot of the time Vortex won't do anything and I don't think a RDW deck with almost zero card draw, can afford that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:21 pm 
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While I see what you guys are saying, I have found the value to be there more than not. The games I have it in play and don't draw at least one land after it hit the board are few. And if I don't draw the land, I am drawing what I need anyway. The thing I think I like about it is that it's insurance if you're drawing weaker. I just don't really see something else in the pool right now I would rather have.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:26 pm 
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Twin Bolt is in the pool and it's so far superior that I'm surprised I have to say it. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:29 pm 
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2bestest wrote:
While I see what you guys are saying, I have found the value to be there more than not. The games I have it in play and don't draw at least one land after it hit the board are few. And if I don't draw the land, I am drawing what I need anyway. The thing I think I like about it is that it's insurance if you're drawing weaker. I just don't really see something else in the pool right now I would rather have.


Twin Bolt isn't in your list and does most of what Vortex does, while costing a card less and coming at instant speed directly from your hand. While it isn't great removal either, it's definitely a much more reliable include.

Edit: I am Hakeems shadow.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:34 pm 
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Maybe drop one for Avaricious Dragon?
You probably wouldn't mind drawing into Vortex with Dragon out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:30 pm 
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2bestest wrote:
While I see what you guys are saying, I have found the value to be there more than not. The games I have it in play and don't draw at least one land after it hit the board are few. And if I don't draw the land, I am drawing what I need anyway. The thing I think I like about it is that it's insurance if you're drawing weaker. I just don't really see something else in the pool right now I would rather have.


Twin Bolt isn't in your list and does most of what Vortex does, while costing a card less and coming at instant speed directly from your hand. While it isn't great removal either, it's definitely a much more reliable include.

Edit: I am Hakeems shadow.


There is no "great" removal without downside in this game. I think this may be the best thing we have at 2CMC, with good 2 for 1 potential against aggro, even 3 for 1 if you can lure them into enchanting their weenies. The instant part is really important for draw go decks and it kills almost as many creatures as Reave Soul.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:42 pm 
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I do see the value in twinbolt. And I see the argument for it. I will test both and see where I feel it's best spent. I know I ruled that out because of the 2 cost in the moment vs the 1 cost over two turns option for the other. But yeah, twin bolt is a solid argument of a replacement.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:25 pm 
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I have to say, I've tried a few of the RDW builds now. I still don't think a low mana curve RDW is going to be good enough. We just don't have the direct damage we need. I think it's going to be midrange or bust. I for one will probably stay away from pure agro for now, at least in mono-red. October can't come fast enough. Then things will get interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:47 pm 
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The problem is that most creatures have one toughness and you need buffs/auras to put your opponent under pressure. This makes RDW almost a default loss against Twin Bolt.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:13 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
I have to say, I've tried a few of the RDW builds now. I still don't think a low mana curve RDW is going to be good enough. We just don't have the direct damage we need. I think it's going to be midrange or bust. I for one will probably stay away from pure agro for now, at least in mono-red. October can't come fast enough. Then things will get interesting.


In the matches I have played my rdw, I have done real well and felt it was really consistent. I have to be honest though that it doesn't have the play time that my dimir control list does.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:07 am 
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2bestest wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
I have to say, I've tried a few of the RDW builds now. I still don't think a low mana curve RDW is going to be good enough. We just don't have the direct damage we need. I think it's going to be midrange or bust. I for one will probably stay away from pure agro for now, at least in mono-red. October can't come fast enough. Then things will get interesting.


In the matches I have played my rdw, I have done real well and felt it was really consistent. I have to be honest though that it doesn't have the play time that my dimir control list does.


Haven't tried yours yet, so I can't comment on it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:09 am 
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Btw, why aren't you guys using Call of the Full Moon. I get that it has a draw back, but it's trample damage, possibly on a prowess creature. I think it has its uses. Not sure if 0 is the right number for that card.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:05 am 
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I have a sneaking suspicion that Call of the Full Moon, as bad as it seems, is playable in RDW.


T1 Goblin Glory Chaser into T2 Call can be pretty darned deadly, assuming you don't get yourself screwed by Fiery Impulse.
It's also pretty unlikely that an opponent would be able to cast two spells on the same turn that early on.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:49 am 
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I have a sneaking suspicion that Call of the Full Moon, as bad as it seems, is playable in RDW.


T1 Goblin Glory Chaser into T2 Call can be pretty darned deadly, assuming you don't get yourself screwed by Fiery Impulse.
It's also pretty unlikely that an opponent would be able to cast two spells on the same turn that early on.


missed your post, but I think we may be on the same page. I think it's totally playable. Especially against midrange and control, because they won't be able to play multiple spells a turn until well after chaser kills them. That's a 4 turn clock off of two cards. Not bad indeed for aggro.

But even if it's going to be gone next turn, it's still 3 extra damage - minimum - over what you would have gotten.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:14 am 
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It is definitely deadly but I take the other enchant over it because it fetches itself again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:02 pm 
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I think both is also an option, but that said, in RDW at 2 CMC trample > Haste, IMO. Turns foundry street denizen into a very serious threat, btw.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:33 pm 
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Of course, infectious bloodlust is the first set of auras to turn to.
Full Moon does provide trample, though, and unlike bloodlust, it gives a 1 drop enough toughness to survive any 1 drop blocker and, in the case of chaser, pretty much any 2 drop blocker after renown. It also survives fiery impulse after renown, and is immune to twinbolt and the black 2 cmc removal.
It also turns your avaricious dragon into a 7/6 flying trampler late-game.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:11 pm 
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My issue with running both though is that your significantly increasing your odds for someone to, two for one you with removal. That is my biggest concern in general with enchantments and why I never want too many of them in any given deck in a meta that doesn't have much to protect your investment.

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