Oh I read very well. Very very well.

I'm also adept at seeing through the wool people like to pull over our eyes.

1.) Yes, your feelings about that. Feelings that had nothing to do with choosing not to kill due to Neo having been killed. Don't forget your own words. You wanted to kill Neo. You told us so yourself. And when he was lynched, you opted to do a no kill instead as per your own words. However, your then-view of possession indicates that you didn't no hit because Neo had died. You no-hit with the intent of maintaining possession on yourself.

2.) Your statement from your confession post is contradictory with what you've said. You were possessed at the time. You felt that no-hitting would maintain possession on yourself. You had no reason to assume you would go back to town. If you can't see why you lied, then that is solely your problem since it is now an established fact that you have lied. And by the way, hindsight is 20/20. You can't sit here and say your previous act was as such with the knowledge you now hold. This is also why intent is important, but I don't expect you to grasp that.

I did a no hit because I had no scum target to hit, and wanted to see what would happen next.

Eli


The full quote doesn't matter since the small amount I showed explains fully what your full quote establishes.

Here, let me dumb it down for you.

Your full quote establishes that back then you had the mindset that you could retain possession by no-hitting. Now compare this to your confession post and it becomes obvious that you lied.

At this point you might as well go quote your whole confession post too. But just a heads-up: It won't do you any good.

With the other quote from earlier today you pass off the no-hit as a product of your desire to not kill at all since your original target, Neo, was lynched. More or less you were telling us you were doing your townly duty.

Except that this doesn't match up with what you said recently. Thus, you are lying. I can't make it any simpler for you to understand; however, I do understand your attempt to backtrack on your mistake and try to make yourself not look like total scum in Garen and Scar's eyes.

Oh and as a by the by, just because you can't get possession to stick on yourself doesn't mean "no scum player can win". It just simply means that at the time you are scum, you won't likely win as scum and someone else will. But you're probably having a hard time understanding that simple aspect of the game.

Yeah. Sure. And pigs can fly in the bright, blue sky.

Remember how you said I wasn't good at keeping my stories straight? I think your words are best meant for yourself, so here is a gift from me to you:

Eli

My story hasnt changed, and I will enjoy post game when others I talked to can pipe in and show what an ass you are.

- I speculated, in trying to understand how the format worked, that no killing would retain possession.
- Given it was day 2 and a win was nowhere in sight, I intended to betray my QT friend.
- My QT friend was lynched, so I sat tight to see exactly how the game worked, before firing off at town members. If you read back further, you'll notice I cover this openly, in pointing out that unless the possessed player thinks they can win that turn, they dont benefit from hurting town.
- After sitting tight, I found my theory was wrong, and moved forward from there. Part of that included my stance on not killing town moving from theoretical to a solid stance.



- I havent said scum cant win, I've said no scum can actively pursue the win for themselves. Any scum who pursues the win, according to your theory is simply securing their own loss, and rolling the dice to see who wins. (Or more likely since we're in lylo, is handing the win to whoever they dont kill.)
- You're hilarious, and I sincerely hope that this desperation is you having misplayed your scummy hand, and not target locked. If not, I imagine Garren is having the best laugh he's had in a game of mafia, and deserves this win.

Why do people ask for my opinion on things that I myself posted some time earlier?

Again:
I believe it to be extremely unlikely and basically horrible design that a scum making a 1/1 situation would mean he would lose because the other guy would become scum.
So if we lynch, and lynch a town, it is 100 times more likely that scum will kill whoever, leading to a 1/1 and a win for that person who is now scum.
If we do not lynch, same situation.
I believe it to be extremely unlikely and basically horrible design that a scum making a decision that leads to the scum wincon would mean he would lose because some other guy would become scum.
So, we have to lynch. And the scum is a lot more likely to actually kill.

I was leaning towards Eli/Garren as pointed out earlier. But with every option presented, I like KoDs posts less and less. First the 1/1 situation now the pre-1/1 night situation.
I thought you were one for Occams Razor KoD. The options you presented during these 2 discussion points have nothing to do with the Razor. Immediate game end is much. much more likely because that's basically how every other mafia game ever ends.

And I agree that my no repossession theory means I would become scum tomorrow, if there is a tomorrow (which is like a 0,01% chance). But we will not know if my theory is true unless we actually know who is possessed today. So that point is basically moot.

Your story has changed Eli. That's why what you posted before and now is different. That's also why you had to change what you said to include both parts to make it look like you think both of those thoughts at the same time after the fact. What you said is inconsistent. What you have done is lie. Pure and simple.

@Scar:

Reiteration is a thing that happens a lot. I've gotten used to it.

Now, your comment about the Razor and me. I have said this before and I imagined it went ignored. So I'll say it again. Clearly. I do go with the Razor. If there was no information in this game that made it different from other games, then I would believe what you are saying and what the Razor would dictate. That is, the game would simply end when a no hit happens for the scum player. But, and this is relevant to what I believe the Razor would dictate, we have game relevant info concerning ending the game. That is, Neo told us what it takes to end the game. That being said, tell me: Does the night end when scum makes the decision to kill or no-hit? No. Night ends at deadline which is determined by the mod. So a full night phase would entail a possession as well.

With that relevant game info, I have no reason to assume (Razor or not) that the game would simply "freeze" when a scum no-hits (after a no lynch happened) and that current scum would win. And as I stated the only consistent scum player who would win for sure when scum wins is Neo.

Do you see the big difference between what you believe and what I believe? What you believe is based on something that has nothing to do with this game here and now. That is, the idea the game will end like all other games despite the fact that this game is different from them with its win conditions. Belief in this without any solid foundation to back it up is flawed. This is why I prefer what I believe, and why I am confident in the event a no-hit happens due to Garen and you not wanting to lynch Eli.

But you've made your point clear. I've made myself clear. And I feel there will be no more reasoning with it. If Garen is truly scum, he can approach the game however he wishes. I can only hope that in the event a no lynch happens, he has enough reasonable doubt to do a kill to prevent town from losing due to him losing possession. If he wants to try testing all this and go for the win, more power to him.


Side Note: Liking my posts isn't necessary at all. Everything we've gathered at this points to something, and you and I have a simple disagreement concerning a mechanic of the game that we can't test. Given what I believe is your train of thought, you believe Garen has to be scum, but he won't get lynched because of me. Any other lynch you want to pursue, from your perspective, will result in a loss for the town (unless Garen no-hits in which case move on to tomorrow where, by your perspective, you'll be the possessed). So you can, alternatively, side with Eli and just lynch me and hope Garen no-hits rather than kill.

If you've got nothing else relevant, then I believe that is that.

That the PM is sent at the end of night, does not mean the possession does not happen at the start of day.
The alignment change of course takes place during the night PM-wise because you want each player to play the day with the 'proper' alignment. But for intents and purposes (targets and stuff) the newly possessed is possessed at the start of day.


Now, here's something else that's been bugging me. I'm sure you mentioned it already, but like you said. There is a lot of reiteration in this game
A) You knew from the moment that I mentioned it during D3 that my Blood Cultist theory was flawed. After all, you were possessed at the beginning of D3 (getting the PM at the end of N2).
B) For that reason, you knew that coming D4 there was an extremely big chance that you would be town again. You also knew that someone was keeping quiet about D2 possession (for whatever reason).
C) But somehow, you killed 15377 which was the mathematically worst choice for a town win possibility. 3-1 Lylo is the worst Lylo possible and 15377 was an information role.

Remember that?

I was officially informed that my possession occurred before Day started. Not at the beginning of Day. Not during the Day. Before.

And I should know given that I actually have that information to work off of as opposed to you. How do you -- what does Numbers say? -- rectify this? Would you kindly refrain from posting beliefs with no backing?

Nope. Not when you've been making really weird claims that go in the face of logic. Also, if you believe repossessing, like you do and are trying to convince me off, you should know I can't trust a thing you're saying. You've been scum D3 and there is a chance you are still now.

I said it literally in that above post. Of course possession happens before the day starts. From a game design standpoint it's similar to how triggered abilities from 'at the beginning of your upkeep' work in Magic games. But for all intents and purposes, whether it is in the last second of the night or the first second of the day makes no difference.
The night decisions are already made before the repossession happens (see also Garrens role). So a scum that makes the winning decision wins the game. If it does not, I'll probably ban Alt from hosting games here in the future

I also like how you refrained from answering the more important part of that post.

Scar


A) Refer to my previous post about when I was possessed.

B) This is not accurate. As I covered previously with my perspective, things were a lot different prior to Eli coming out with his claim. To put simply, prior to D4 and becoming unpossessed, I thought there was a chance I would stay possessed and so I killed to further my chance (as scum) of winning. Obviously I became unpossessed and knew immediately that Neo had nothing to do with possessions. What I still didn't know was whether or not I was the cause of the no-hit during D2 (information only Eli knew). I had multiple ideas as to why things occurred the way they did in the game (prior to Eli confessing), but of those ideas the one that had the least backing to it was someone remaining quiet about D2. It was possible, sure, but with the no-hit D2 and my belief that, when I was initially possessed, I had missed sending in the kill target I thought it more likely that possessions occurred on even nights and disappeared entirely during odd nights (as in at the end of the night to account for Rubik becoming unpossessed).

Without Eli's information, that was the course of thought I pursued. When Eli came forth, it changed how I viewed the game working.

C) I covered this from my perspective in previous posts. And I just explained it again in B). If you want, you can go verify what I've said from the start of the day. If you like, I can explain it again.


Anything else Scar? And besides, what bothers you about that anyway?

Indeed. I do believe in repossessions. Although, to be frank, it's more like I believe someone like Eli (who was possessed more than a day ago) can be repossessed as opposed to being immune to it. But that's a minor detail for me. Either way you have a point that you can't trust me if you believe in repossessions. If you don't, then you face your own logical problems.

And there you go again with information outside the game. The magic analogy is not the same as what we've facing here. Their win condition is any possessed escape. Escape only happens when the puzzle is solved. The puzzle is solved only when no deaths occur for a full day and a full night. If we no lynch today, the game won't end just because night starts and scum sends in "no kill" since that doesn't end the night.

Alright, I'm done. You know my stance on it, and you know full well that your belief is based strictly on what ***you*** think good/bad game design is. I'm not going to budge on this because you're not offering me anything concrete concerning this game within the context of this game. All you are doing is pointing outside the box and saying, "look at how everything else works obv this works the same way," despite the fact that the win cons alone change the meaning of the game.

The only choice you have, if you want a lynch Scar, is to help Eli lynch me along with Garen if he even goes for it. If he believes Eli and you, he won't go for it which means we are definitely headed for a no lynch and a no kill. So either Garen-scum wins, or, as per my perspective, possession will rotate to someone else and that person will win along with PopPa and Neo.

Scar


As a by the way, since I love Magic, what I'm saying is similar to effects that trigger at end of turn.

But hey, never mind that it was officially confirmed to me, by the mod, that I was possessed during the night. We can just skip right along thinking that when night ends possession will not occur in the event scum no hit after a no lynch. Seems totally reasonable. /scarasm

Challenge accepted!!! I want to end up with a title that says "Banned from hosting"

I'll tell you who is having fun right now. ^ That guy.

Well, I'm having fun too, but I'm immersed in a game where I'm arguing with someone who refuses to see the fallacy of their argument.

Scar


What part was the more important part of that post? I saw no question directed at me, and I saw multiple points that I could address.

This does bring up a good point.
I would like all of you to check your PMs momentarily...

I replied what I already posted ingame.
I feel a bit out of my comfort zone because this is not what was on the package when I signed up (mostly unchanged mafia).
And I'm telling you that I cannot confirm that because you actually admitted to be scum and could still be now. I can claim to have received PMs as well. But this is a game of proof.

And yes, I know that the proof part here is pretty out there. In my opinion, the biggest part of mafia is behavior analysis and that is basically gone from this game due to the switching alignments.

Because there is nothing I have to offer within the context of the game.

Let's look at things from my perspective.
I signed up for a 'mostly unchanged' mafia game with a small puzzle.
The way the win cons were worded, there was a change.
The way alignments seemed to switch, there was a change.
The way there is no behavior analysis or connections to be drawn, there was a change.

As a vanilla town with nothing to go on except information from 2 past scum and 1 possible scum, all I have is my own musings.