But when it comes down to it, I have nothing else against Garren other than what I said earlier. I can't convince you otherwise.
You've shown that you couldn't care less about Elis arguments because of the stuff that happened in the game.

I'll probably just end it after a good nights rest.

Neo said what the way to sole the puzzle was. We have no reason to not believe him. It's not like he was under duress and gave us that info for fear of dying. Not to mention there is a puzzle in this game.

At least what I'm "speculating" on has a solid basis as opposed to your belief that it is terrible design. Disregarding what Neo said, can you tell me how the puzzle works? Any idea whatsoever?

I will grant that it is possible Neo may have not mentioned something such as "you win the moment there are no deaths day and night." That being said, I see no reason to not consider Neo and the spirits linked in terms of win con. And if that is the case, then I already know what the win con is. We all do. It's any possessed must escape. And from Neo's own words, the only way to "escape" is to have a no deaths day or night. Obviously night would have to fully complete in order for there to be "no deaths" (otherwise what stops the scum player from sending in the hit, say, 2 mins before deadline?).

I'm speculating. Yes, but my speculation has a solid foundation to work upon as opposed to your belief.

And with all that being said, the "If Garen is scum" scenario will not immediately end once he commits the kill. The game does not end the moment we have 1-1. The game, as I've been trying to hammer into your head and everyone elses', ends when the puzzle is solved. A 1-1 situation just guarantees a no lynch then you move to night where a no kill happens (or a kill does happen to prevent the other player from being possessed and winning).

We've got a relatively good idea of how possessions work. We've got an idea of how the game can be ended. These tidbits of information trump your beliefs, your theories, and any ideas you have that have no "factual" backing.

So, I'll reiterate it one more time for your sake. Bad design because it prevents the "winning" scum from winning by giving it to someone else? Refer to how possessions work and how to solve the puzzle. What can you throw at me that substantiates your claim of bad design other than your personal opinion? Garen being scum, I've already covered the scenarios. Again, refer to our knowledge of how possessions work and how the puzzle can be solved (aka ending the game).

If I'm right in any sense, then the course I laid out is for the best. If I'm wrong (only in the sense of lynching), then we move to 3 players left at night. As per our knowledge of how possession works (which is that it switches every night), Garen will end up being town tomorrow. He won't kill. The difference between this game and others is the inclusion of a puzzle. Remember that when you talk about 1-1 ending as a scum victory every time (which is true since scum kills at night anyway), but, and I'm getting pedantic here, there could be a day phase in which no lynch happens followed by a night phase where scum nk. The same can happen here making what I'm saying much more likely than what you are saying.

Pause.

I just referred to the first phase of the game thread as well as the Day 1 post.

At what point, aside from Neo and Garen mentioning the puzzle, did the puzzle become a thing?

@Garen:

Day 2 you immediately mentioned to not solve the puzzle if someone had figured it out. Did you have information regarding the puzzle being a real thing? Because aside from you and Neo, I can't find any "official" meaning to the puzzle inside this game thread.

Nothing special no. I just remember a puzzle being mentioned in the sign up thread. Isn't it confirmed by the win-cons though? 'No possessed players escape' and 'possesses player escape' seem to indicate there is something going on behind the scenes after all.

The win cons talking about escaping would be the only indication. I remember the sign up thread mentioning the puzzle there, but here in this thread I've seen no mention of it. Well, given that Neo brought up the puzzle anyway, I believe its existence is more than likely anyway.

Oh, and by the way Scar, Garen has access to no more information than I did when I was possessed or Eli or Rubik. I had no idea if I was going to stay possessed last night which is what drove me to killing Numbers rather than killing no one (like Eli thinks would be the best move). All that simply because you laid out a good plan for approaching the game in a cautious manner that forced me to act.

By that same token, Garen doesn't know (like the rest of us) how exactly the game will end. He could take a chance, kill someone tonight, and hope he wins automatically without possession switching (even though we know it does switch during the night). Garen could do that, or he could play it safe, not kill, and go back to town tomorrow like he knows will happen (if he's the possessed one). If he goes back to town tomorrow from being possessed, ta da. We have a favorable situation I laid out which guarantees town victory. All that has to be down is lynch whoever was not possessed yesterday and not cleared by Garen tomorrow.

You have to admit, a guaranteed victory for Garen is much better than the chance of victory (with the equal chance that victory could go to someone else for sure). Or do you disagree with my sentiment on that?

Garen, what do you think about that scenario?

Way I see it it goes like this;
1) We Kill Elijin.
1a) He's possessed. We win the game. Go town!
1b) He's not possessed. Night happens.
1ba) I kill someone tonight. We enter tomorrow with 1 possessed (whoever) and 1 clean (me). We can't lynch because it's impossible to get a majority. Night falls I die, town loses.
1bb) I don't kill someone tonight. We enter tomorrow with 2 clean (me and whoever my ability checks). We stomp the possessed guy and town wins. Go town!

2) We kill Me.
2a) I'm possessed. We win the game. Go town!
2b) I'm not possessed. Night happens.
2ba) Elijin kills someone tonight. We enter tomorrow with 1 possessed and 1 clean (me). We can't lynch because it's impossible to get a majority. Night falls clean dies, town loses.
2bb) Elijin doesn't kill someone tonight. We enter tommorow with 2 clean and 1 possessed. Only Elijin is confirmed clean and the thing falls to a 50/50 shoot out to try and snatch a town victory.

Of the 4 possible scenarios 1bb) guarantees a victory for town with zero risk. Obviously I'm going to follow that path.

EBWOP: 2ba shouldn't say '1 possessed and 1 clean (me)'. It should say '1 possessed and 1 clean.' copy-paste for the win.

Or to put it in a way that does not require flow-charts;

1) Scarlet and KoD are clean today.
2) We have to kill someone tonight or town loses.
3) If the possessed person kills tonight it guarantees their loss tomorrow.

We kill Elijin and we either win then and there (because he is possessed) or we enter tomorrow in a position of guaranteed town victory (I was possessed, am now clean, and will have the name of the other clean person).

Or...

We kill me and we either win then and there (because I am possessed) or we enter tomorrow and Elijin will have a 50/50 chance of winning or losing the game based on who he votes (Elijin was possessed, is now clean, but does not know the identity of the other clean person).

Just lol.

Well, there you go Scarlet. The current strong arguments against me are 'Yeah but we're not in lylo!', with a supporting round of 'If we mislynch today and scum kills tonight, the last town standing wins by merit of an 11th hour possession!' with a side of 'If we no lynch, the scum wont kill tonight because then they'd be handing the win to whoever gets possessed that day!'

I dont think either of those are likely. I think both of them are outright absurd. I think if we mislynch today, the game ends. You think it too. The fact this isnt the first time KoD has tried to sell we're not in lylo (start of the day he volunteered to be the 'quickdraw' voter to secure town's win tomorrow, even though a lynch requires 50%+1, and is thus impossible) is making me lean towards my gut feeling of the based in no solid information idea that KoD has scum and isnt rotating.

I mean the alternative is that a) he thinks Alt couldnt design the game in a way which actually resulted in a win for the scum players, or b ) he's obsessed with taking me down, to the point of trying any crazy theory to avoid doubt about mislynching.

So yeah, either KoD thinks the mod is an idiot who created a format where the scum can achieve their winning condition, only to lose....
Or he's trying to rob this lylo (the one his kill pushed us into) of any significance.

Unvote
Vote: KoD

Im confident in scar's reaction, comes down to Garren now. Which if he's scum, I've lost us the game, but at least I've lost us the game without chasing the idea that scum cannot actually achieve their win con for themselves.

Sorry was that aimed at my argument or KoDs? I thought my math was pretty solid and I don't recall saying any of the things you just said - not to mention the second two are blatantly false. If we mislynch and then scum kills in the night phase town loses and a no lynch automatically causes us to lose.

It was directed at KoD, who has more or less said those things.

To clarify my position, I believe if the game enters a state unwinnable by town(2 players standing), or achieves the puzzle solution, the game immediately ends, with everyone as is.

Your logic actually ignores the fact KoD has tried to say that the game wont end until puzzle completion, and thus with a possession every day, scum cant win for themselves at this point, only the next player..

It just doesnt really account for why KoD has dived off the deep end.

It's a position I agree with.

2 players (I assume you mean 1 possessed, 1 town?) means scum wins. It would make sense to push things along rather then doing the 'D5 = No Lynch, N5 = Town Dies, D6 = No Lynch, N6 = No Kill, D7 = Puzzle Solved!' route - especially since D5 onwards would be one person playing by themselves.

Likewise if we don't lynch and scum get's there win con or, alternatively, we lynch the possessed player and town can win unopposed there really is no reason running through the extra N/D/N/D cycles needed to complete the puzzle.


Honestly? I'm kinda ignoring KoD at this point (sorry KoD). My math doesn't need to account for his current string of arguments. Your death guarantees towns victory - so long as he refuses to shift his vote off you (for whatever reason) he is helping town. I appreciate it isn't exactly an argument you will except (I'd be amazed if you did) but I feel it is the best option. Sorry about that.

You realise by agreeing with me you invalidate your 1bb result, because it becomes entirely at your whim. You kill and win, or hold back and win.

You're also really hoping that KoD's departure from reality is based on him being fixated on me, and not a static scum.

What wait? If I kill I'd lose. Possession would shift at the start of Day 5 and then town would automatically lose (rather then run through the extra 2 days). Or are you saying the win con would trigger at the point the night kill occurs? I'll admit I didn't think about that. Hmm. That's annoying. I assumed it would be the 'Kill > Possession Shifts > Town Loses' scenario'.


I am yes. With you admitting you were scum on D2 I no longer have any reason to assume possession is static.

Im saying the moment a scum player achieved a win con, the game would freeze. There would be no rotation. Anything else is absurd as it directly results in a game where scum cannot win for themselves.

That's true but scums win condition isn't kill all players - it's to escape yes? While we would skip the few days proceeding the event (because they run on auto-pilot) effects such as possession shifting would still occur wouldn't they? Or at least I think they would.

The games entire mechanics seems to be based on scum having to play as scum *because* they are scum rather then because it actually benefits them. Ever since Day 2 there really hasn't been a reason for scum to kill anyone beyond 'I am scum - this is what scum do'. Hmm. This is an odd game.

I assume then that if you are scum you will be killing someone if you reach the night phase?

If I was scum, I would make a kill tonight, but I am not scum.

If you know you're not scum, I ask you to consider what I've previously said. KoD is making no sense. I proposed that flavour-wise, I was deemed an unsuitable candidate for possession, and it moved on. That does not mean the scum is still freely rotating without the cultist. KoD killed, even though it was a terrible move for town at that point, immediately took credit for it, and then started talking as if today isnt a lylo.

None of that makes sense. Do you really believe that KoD is so fixated on me, thats he's taken complete leave of his senses?