I have no strong opinion either way.

Clearly my hesitation is due to not knowing if this is better for town or for scum.

I know that my claim is not really going to help anyone, I believe.

Also, numbers, one of the last games (when you were town) you clearly said that you would not claim under any circumstances. What's different about this game?

@lilan
So your ultimate plan is that if the doc and cop reveal, then they'll die but we'll know one person's role?

Apart from that boiling down to 'Lets give up any power roles town has for small gains', it ignores that the mafia can lie about roles, and put people in a he said she said position.

Massclaims are garbage day 1.

Mass claim? I oppose it. Same reason Neo gave recently. I, as of this moment, do not see how it is more beneficial to town. Mafia can just glean info to help them.

Neo, what was the context when he said that? Because if he totally said something along the lines of like, "I will never claim as town," then we may have ourselves a scummy Numbers here.

C'mon, numbers would never say something like that. In that game, he just said that under no circumstances would he claim. I'm 90% sure he was town that game. Once I've got a working computer, and am not on my phone, I'll track it down

I'm not the doctor this game. Whoever is the doctor, however, I expect (and encourage might I add) to lie about their role. Will they get lynched for lying later down the road? Possibly. But that's a bridge we'll burn when we come to it.

So the opposition I'm seeing is Scar and PopPa standing on tradition as an opposition and Eli making the case of outted power roles are bad.

KoD has yet to speak on the matter.

Neo and Garren are kinda whatevs on the matter.

Everyone else is pro.

From a majority standpoint it seems KoD's vote would be the deciding factor. But when have I ever cared what KoD thought? I was contemplating a Day 1 self claim before Lilan's suggestion came around. Because I was already considering claiming I supported the notion. I then let people weigh in on the matter to guage stances. The reactions to such have become my initial reads. As the day has gone on I've given the matter more serious thought and would like to see a mass claim today. "Why, numbers, why?" you may be crying out at your keyboards and screens as you read this and the answer is simple. I'm a cop variant. Note I did not say the cop variant. Given the size of the game I think it's unlikely there would be others, but it's far from impossible.

Now I'm not going to express what type of variant I am (at least before a mass claim), because my plan is to create an early claim to lock everybody into either claiming their role, claiming something that they hope will cover their role, or just outright lying in the hopes that I won't be able to see through it. As I said before, I expect the doctor to lie in this situation and that might get him into some heat if I target him, but I feel buying time on his life is worth the risk of getting caught up lying down the road. The point of this exercise though is to create a master claim sheet against which I will be checking people. This keeps me from having to check people, then fish for information to see if it matches up to what I found out, then try to convince people after the fact that so and so is lying.

To those that oppose the mass claim, Scar and PopPa, tradition isn't winning games for town. When something doesn't work, it's time to try a new tactic. Be more flexible. To Eli, I've just wrecked half your argument with my claim (the other half being the doc, which I've advised not to out himself so yeah). Time to find a different approach to opposing or get on board.

Once you guys finally get over change, I'll popcorn it to KoD.

***Flash Edit: I see KoD officially opposed. Once again, I don't care what he thinks.***

If that is the case Neo, then why apply what he said in one game to this game? That was your intent right? Mentioning an entirely different game where he wouldn't claim no matter what and applying that to this current game where, I assume, he's doing the opposite.

I was going to say, "But Numbers, I did comment." Then I noticed you don't care so that solves that. Is the mass claim really that big of a deal?

Because if it is and some people really want to claim, then I say go for it. But since I'm opposed to it, I won't. So you'll be claiming without me.

I took time to read the rest of Numbers's posts. All I can say is, I'm refusing to claim still. If you dislike this, Numbers, you'll get over it.

Outted power roles are still a liability.

You making some trumped up claims to glory, and an unverifiable power role claim, doesnt dismiss that. If anything it highlights how easily a single player can run away with the narrative by trying to force power claims. I mean the idea here is that we have to claim, in order for you to play match the pair?

On day 1, there's nothing to confirm you're telling the truth, nor is there anything to verify who's side you're on. After all, 'Cop-variant' is not exclusively the domain of the just.


So between Lilan's awful 'We can sacrifice our power roles in order to confirm a town!' and your demonstration of how easily the first person to speak up and make a power claim can control the narrative, I will stick to my guns and on the whole 'Outting power roles in a mass claim (and therefore a mass claim) is bad.'

@KoD: You know me. I don't sweat things either way. I just take information, or in this case lack there of, provided by other players and evaluate them accordingly.

@Eli: Unverified is the word you're looking for. Not knowing what I can do there's no way of knowing whether or not I can prove my claim, only that I haven't done so yet. See that's key, because that little tidbit of information isn't going to make town sweat because they don't have anything to sweat from a cop. Only scum will be worried about what's to come. And you, my friend, seem a little nervous.

Guaranteeing a cop result is worth sacrificing the cop and the doc. The situation i outlined earlier is ideal. So ideal that the standard mafia strategy in that case is generally to leave the cop alive to WIFOM the town. N2 after claiming D2 is probably the ideal time for the cop to die in this game, assuming D3 is LyLo. If the cop lives to day 3 their results become unreliable and we risk losing the game by lynching them. Dying N2 gives the cop the maximum amount of time to gain results and confirm their validity by dying. In longer games the cop sometimes gets two results this way, but in this game its only one.

This strategy is usually specifically shut down by mods by making sure there isn't a vanilla cop and vanilla doc in the same game. If the cop is a watcher or something, then the results they get aren't nearly as valuable, and if the doc is say, a jailer, then they can't target the cop without also roleblocking them.

Any piece of info can be useful, if not for today in this game, then maybe in the future.

Odd.

Pretty sure I was more I was more direct than Eli, yet he's the one being nervous and not I? What gives?

And Lilan, is that the strategy you want us to follow?

by standard mafia strategy i meant standard scum strategy

If we had a vanilla cop and doc after claim, then I wouldn't recommend any specific actions aside from having the doc protect the cop and the cop claiming results each day until they die.

So you're just posting the obvious. Alrighty.

Yes, in response to elijin not understanding the benefit an open doc and cop bring the town.

There's a pretty big difference between 'not understanding' and 'not agreeing'.


And Numbers, the word Im looking for was unverifiable. As in, within the context of a mass claim, there's no way to establish any of this as fact. In time, your claim will obviously been proven to be the truth or not.


Honestly I'd like to see a shift away from ridiculous D1 posturing filled with 'Oh he said that slightly differently then I would, is he scum?!' and towards working out the puzzle. Which would be easier if there were even a rough idea of what the hell the puzzle is. Unless Alt is planning on adding to the puzzle slightly, day by day, its a stupid puzzle. I mean currently, there is zero information, solving the puzzle is throwing blind guesses into the wind to see what sticks.

Huh, a lot like the D1 lynch, really.

@ Eli: It's not posturing. Unverifiable and Unverified mean two completely different things and carry different connotations with them. Unverifiable means it cannot be verified. Unverified means it has not been verified. You are trying to drop one word and apply the meaning of the other to it when questioned, but when not questioned it carries the original meaning and connotation. In this game of behavior analysis these are exactly the cues we are supposed to be looking for. To ignore them to talk about something that we have no information on and likely will not have any more information on today only further propagates your reluctance to discuss actual venues of matter in order to fluff your way through the day. Need I remind you that Alt stated that if we just mafia the rest will fall into place when I asked about the puzzle?

@ KoD: It's about attitude, not directness.

Just so you know, I have this on record

I'll post an official votes/time remaining post when I get out of class.