1. Razorborne introduces us to the chatroom
2. Fredd makes a joke about me being call Me - "can i pretend I'm talking to myself all game"
3. I courtesy laugh, wonder what the odds of being neighbor two games in a row are
4. Fredd asks if the forum is running like junk for anyone else.
5. I say it's about normal for me
6. I say we should probably use this chat for something rather then being vanilla players
7. Fredd agrees with the sentiment
8. I whine about neighbour being kinda a crapshoot
9. Fredd whines about neighbour being kinda a crapshoot
10. Fredd lists top three scum suspects (Lilan, Rubik, Ambar), asks what I think of Hello World
11. Fredd brings up the question of if we should try and support each other if one comes under fire
12. I list my top suspects (MoD, Lilan, Ambar), have no strong opinion of HW
13. I tell Fredd I'll follow their lead regarding catching heat. Explain why I think they are probably town
14. Razorborne steps in and, within saying it directly, tells me my theory is bull (thanks Razor...)
15. I whine about Scarlet's dying and how we now get nothing out of day 1
16. Fredd contemplates the nature of Scarlet's ability
17. Fredd continues exploring the nature of Scarlet's ability
18. I outline changed suspicions (mostly more suspect of HW), whine some more about Scarlet
19. I ask if Fredd has played with Numbers before because everything he is doing seems off to me
20. Fredd informs me it's basically how he rolls - he changes things up a lot
21. I thank Fredd for the information
22. Fred comments of the interesting situation of their being another set of neighbours
23. I state I am inclined to believe the claim
24. Fredd agrees
25. I bring up the mass claim thing, wanting to get Fredds opinion since my claim is also theirs
26. Fredd agrees, stating Lilan is probably scum

Fred votes Ambar
Lilan votes Ambar
Ambar votes Lilan
PP comments on how the "third vote" thing is a load of crock.
Lilan "I think the third vote rule is a decent guideline for analyzing wagons post-lynch. Mafia will tend to join wagons on townies if they can't start them (especially if there are competing wagons on their teammates), and that usually puts them on the 3-4th vote statistically."
Freddeh "It's a useful excuse for mafia to find a reason to shift blame. That said, Lilan not providing at least a 'Just wanted to bandwagon' reasoning is slightly scummy."
Confused "I don't find third voting such a mafia act. If the third is always mafia, we will be having an easier time. That aside, I just assume that when people don't state reasons, it meant that he or she agrees with the already given pov."
Rubik votes HW
Freddeh votes Rubik
Rubik "I voted for the third vote on a bandwagon that is at least partially built around the lynch candidate being the third vote in the other bandwagon. He voted for Lilan (whose case is primarily built around being the third vote) without providing a strong reason and then—after submitting his first post—said, "I don't find that third vote particularly scummy" having realized that he too was the third vote and the case that could be made for Lilan could just as easily be made for him."
Freddeh "I agree with the opinion that Lilan shouldn't have been jumped on merely for being the third vote on a wagon. Making a vote with no given reasoning is the suspect part."
MoD votes Ambar
Confused votes Ambar
Garren "Oh I'm here. I just letting people talk and noting things down for later. I find day 1 votes to be an absolute crapshoot anyway; I'd rather look suspicious by not voting then by jumping on one of many ill-conceived bandwagons and have people riding my ass about it later. On the upside this has certainly been one of the more interesting day 1's I've seen in a while."
PP on Garren's post "Oh boy is this a doozy."

Vote Count
Ambar (4): KoD, Lilan, MoD, Confused
MoD (2): Numbers, HW
Lilan (1): Ambar
HW (1): Rubik
Rubik (1): Freddeh
Not Voting: Scarlet, PP, Garren

Confused "Regarding a mafia-driven bandwagon, wouldn't it be likely for KoD or Freddeh to be the one too? Mafia-driven would imply that mafia kick-started the entire thing, right? Atm, I would prefer if Lilan just gives a reason, I assume she is agreeing with MoD's given pov but it would nice if she at least states her reason."
Freddeh votes Ambar
Lilan "ambar literally said "i don't care if i'm lynched" freddeh"
Ambar "And I still stand by that. I still think it will give town the most information."
MoD "Can I just say that I disagree with numbers. Wagons early are often populated by town. It's a good scum tactic to let the town lynch themselves instead of pushing hard for a townie lynch. If Ambar wants to be lynched, btw, can we just lynch him?"
(KoD) "BTW PP, are you going g to offer more than general observations of mafia game theory? Or are you content to post as little as possible?"
PP @ KoD "I'm pretty sure I've only ever done as little as possible."
PP "Actually, there were a few games where I Was a replacement and posted a ton."
MoD "We could just lynch PP for uselessness..."
PP "It'll kick in later. I've participated in Day 1s very rarely."
MoD "I'll hold you to that"
PP (quote chain) viewtopic.php?p=279369#p279369
Garren "Just stopping in with my daily 'still here, still watching' post. Ya know, in case people start wondering where I am. Day 2 Summary - Same as the First. Keep on truckin' people."
MoD "Does this place have a meta of heaps of people ignoring day 1?"
PP "Probably. Although I doubt we really have a meta at this point. You'll get players like JaC who posts sparse content that amps up in intensity as the game goes on, and people like JD who aren't nearly as good looking as their articulation implies."
MoD "Can we just lynch ambar already, given that he says he's ok with his lynch?"
PP "Being okay with his lynch isn't a reason to lynch him."
MoD "But his apatheticness (apathy?) is antitown."

Vote Count
Ambar (4): Lilan, MoD, Confused, Freddeh
MoD (2): Numbers, HW
Lilan (1): Ambar
HW (1): Rubik
Numbers (1): KoD
Not Voting: Scarlet, PP, Garren

MoD "I would probably vote for PoPa, given that even if he is town, he seems unlikely to contribute much."
Confused posts on the KoD vs Numbers debate
Garren "Our definitions of meaningful seem to be slightly unaligned but I'll bite. Were I going to vote I would most likely drop it at Ambar's feet. I never bought into the original reason that that wagon started (non-committal commentary on day 1 oh my) but the hyper-defensive flailing that followed just pushed them deeper and deeper into a corner. I'm not making the vote as I still don't like the wagon (and Ambar's heading for the chopping block as is anyway) but at this juncture Ambar's death would probably provide the most information we're going to get this early on. No need to rush into it though - it'll come in it's own time. As others thoughts MasterofDoom has pinged my radar a good couple of times. Maybe it's just the way he posts rubbing me wrong but he seems to be doing a whole lot of short posts that are either the equivalent of 'I agree with this' or random comments. He's coming off a lot like Popular Pariah except PP is bare faced in the fact that he isn't intending to contributing anything with MoD is trying really hard to look like he is."
MoD on KoD vs Numbers "Surely this is town-on-town. Scum don't usually want to make themselves this conspicuous."
Freddeh "Really MoD, it's null vs null. They both do this on a regular basis from what I remember, having had similar post wars with both in the past."
Freddeh "I forgot how much I dislike playing with people like Rag [Lilan], Rubik, and Feebs [PP] though, because of how much they dedicate themselves to acting 'the same' no matter if they are scum or town, which in their case means acting scum all the time."
Rubik "Honestly of the three of us, I think Febb (PP) is the only one I think that description fits. Ragnarokio (Lilan) lurks literally every game I see him play scum (thus he aids town by sort of soft-confirming himself when he plays actively) and I always act in what I perceive to be the best interest of whatever faction I'm a part of. Febb (PP) is the only one of the three of us who I've seen regularly actively fight against his win-condition intentionally. I think the problem is that you perceive people joking around to be anti-town, when in reality it's just a part of all three of our posting styles. I admit in Dwarf Fortress (my first game on Px2 and probably the worst mafia experience I've had), I let that get to an anti-town level, but I think I've played to my win condition pretty well in most—if not all—of my subsequent games. It's not that we play like scum every game, it's that you're bad at reading us."
Freddeh "Fair enough, I guess you two aren't quite as bad as Febb [PP]. Either way, my beef with you (in this game at least) has little to do with joking, it has to do with your lack of contribution. I like humor as much as the next guy, but you need to also contribute something with it or I'll come after you every time."
Freddeh votes Lilan "I'll bite, Ambar wagon is getting too stagnant atm anyway."
Rubik "I'm going to be honest, I still think both of these wagons (Ambar and Lilan) are pretty weak. While I'm obviously not positive, I feel like scum has gotten into a comfortable position where two townies have gotten wagons to naturally form on them (although Lilan's wagon has been a lot more elastic, which could be significant in some way). I feel more confident that Ambar is town than Lilan, but I also feel more confident that Ambar getting lynched will give us more information to go off of than Lilan. The fact that Ambar has claimed vanilla town also means we have a lower risk of accidentally hitting a town power role. That said, I'd rather vote for someone who I think has a reasonable chance of being scum instead of bandwagoning something I don't believe in. If I had to choose between the two of them, I'd personally go with Ambar because I feel like it's less risky and we stand to learn more from it, but I'm obviously not going to take that vote unless I'm put in a position where I personally have to decide between the lesser of two bad wagons."
PP "You aren't forced to vote for one of them."
Rubik "I know, that's why I'm still voting for HW."
Rubik "I'd assume the people who are lurking are either: a) scum, b) preoccupied with things other than this game, or c) trying to avoid heat so that they can safely make a case when there are more things to analyze. Probably some mixture of the three."
Ambar "I kind of want to vote for PP, since he does not seem to really contribute to the game, based on his posts so far in this game and in the last game. However, depending on the mafia strategy, he might make a good night kill on N1, since he'd give almost no info."
Ambar "As town, you should be doing whatever you can to add on to the discussions. It's almost certainty that someone from town is going to get killed tonight. If you are town, and you've not added anything to the contribution, then your death is not going to help town at all. WIFOM - remember, as town, your goal is not to survive, but to help town win in the end....lurking might help you live longer, but it hurts town's chances of winning. Likely one of the main reasons that town has not won a normal game here yet...(as far as I remember)"
Garren (quote chain for context) viewtopic.php?p=280359#p280359
Lilan unvotes
Lilan "I think Ambar's town. I wasn't expecting the wagon to grow that fast or that hard and I think if ambar would scum it would take a little more push to get it going as far as it got. In short, I agree with numbers, though probably not with as much conviction. Here's my logic: In a mafia game, scum are less likely to vote for their team mates. This is especially true when their team mates are at risk of being lynched. The effect of this is threefold and the resultant trend is the reason I think Ambar is town. 1) Wagons will form more readily on town, because both mafia and town players are willing to vote for them. 2) Wagons will form more slowly on scum, because mafia players are less willing to vote on these wagons than on other wagons. 3) Counterwagons will form on scum wagons, This means that if a mafiate is on the chopping block, the wagon will generally shift to someone else. The resultant trend is that harder, faster, and longer wagons are more likely to be town wagons than scum wagons. I feel this is especially true in a low information setting like day 1, when votes are more arbitrary and fall into essentially random patterns moreso than in later days when there are real reasons for voting.
Lilan "No scum reads at the moment, haven't put enough effort into analyzing the thread. I'd be inclined to not lynch KoD or numbers today because they are both high priority NK targets."
Confused @ Freddeh "So, you are voting for Lilan because ambar's wagon is stagnant? Not out of some reason regarding Lilan? You shifted your vote away from ambar then back to him for some reason, meaning your view on ambar wasn't that important all along? The way you phrased this makes me feel like you don't care who dies, as long as someone does???"
Confused @ Lilan "Hmm, if I take point 3, wouldn't the attempt to get a wagon on you fulfill it? Meaning by its logic, ambar is mafia, yes? Do you think point 2 applies to you? And as for point 1, assuming ambar is town like you think, who do you think is(are) the "mafia(s)" then? Not to mention you are the 3rd to vote on ambar."
Lilan "The trend is more important than the individual points. As for point 3, a wagon forming on me could indicate that ambar is scum but it would have happened sooner than this on the average. As for point 2, I haven't analyzed the votes yet, but I don't think a wagon existed on my until recently and it is too early to measure how fast or slow it developed. As for point 1, I don't have any scumreads at the moment."
Garren "I really need to start making a habit of noting who is voting for who at what juncture rather than waiting for Razor's convenient summaries. I didn't realize things had shifted quite so much. So Lilan is the new contender eh? You know what? I'm actually okay with that. As mentioned earlier I would have been okay with Ambar being lynched solely for the information their death would have provided. However with that recent shift in votes and Lilan's sudden burst of activity (that is to say turning up after a few people mentioned their lurking, immediately unvoting and apologizing for the original wagon) is also interesting. At this point I believe either of them would provide about the same information upon death and Lilan back-peddling after drawing heat just reeks of trying to appease town over trying to actively determine who is scum. Of the two of them I suspect Lilan of being more likely to flip mafia then Ambar. In fact let's make my current stance official"
Garren votes Lilan
Lilan "I apologized for being unable to post on the weekend, not for my vote on ambar."
Garren "No, you may not have directly apologized for it. But you did retract your vote, explain you didn't think the wagon would build that fast and proclaimed that Ambar was town. What is that if not an apology? I appreciate that you couldn't post during weekends - I often have the same problem. But if this all was some test to determine Ambar's alignment you have chosen an incredibly inconvenient time to reveal you findings. You have to admit the timing here doesn't work in your favour."
Lilan "I intended to vote for ambar when I did and I intended to unvote when I did. I voted for her because I wanted to see the information that her wagon would yield. With the deadline approaching, I decided to share my view on it and unvote. The fact that it occurred after a couple people voted for me was a coincidence, I would have done the same If I had posted earlier."
Garren @ HW " I don't recall ever saying that I suspected Ambar of being scum - just that his death would provide the most information. Was it the bit about him being 'pushed deeper and deeper into a corner'? If so then my apologies - I didn't intend for it to be interpreted that way but I can see how you came to that conclusion."
Lilan "I feel like Ambar is not as invested in the game as they could be, but I recall them making some posts trying to move things along (i think they requested explanations for votes from the people on their wagon?). Being okay with your own lynch is not okay but not indicative of alignment, I think. My read on Ambar's play today is more or less null, although I'm hoping they'll become more active in driving discussions in the future."
Ambar "I'll say that I'm happy to not be top on the chopping block right now, I'm fine with sticking with my gut and seeing what happens with a Lilan lynch. At this point, it will give us around the same amount of info as my lynch, and, it has the added bonus of maybe hitting scum."
Ambar asks some questions that Lilan later answers viewtopic.php?p=280928#p280928
Lilan "I just wanted to answer the questions. I looked at the list of players and picked out the one that felt the scummiest to me without really reading into them. That's how I got rubik anyway."
MoD on the questions "Thiiiiiis is scummy. Instead of offering opinions, he asks questions. He basically says 'numbers is either town or scum'. "I'll say that I'm happy to not be top on the chopping block right now" seems like scum as well."
MoD "Well, you said 'because his posts are so bad'. I'm guessing you voted me because my posts were not exactly insightful, I didn't add much to the game."
Ambar "Now this made me laugh. I've offered opinions, and, in the post you quoted, I specifically said why I'm not putting in more opinions until we have some actual information. I also said that I wanted to throw out some questions to try and spark more conversation. Your posts are clearly anti-town. I'm not as convinced as numbers is that you're scum, but you are clearly not trying to help town. How about you add to the conversation? Reading but not posting does not help town at all. Unless that is your goal, as numbers seems to think."
Lilan "master of doom is what mafiascum would refer to as a village idiot. Its an anti-town playstyle because its generally impossible to read the alignment of the player and their playstyle is usually considered not conductive to the advancement of the game. They're often policy lynched for that reason, but I prefer to ignore them and let vigs/cops deal with them if possible."
Lilan "I'll vote for someone before the deadline hits if it will prevent me from being lynched."
Rubik "I'd prefer an Ambar lynch over a Lilan lynch. If a better wagon comes up or your wagon diminishes, I'll remove my vote."
Rubik votes Ambar
Freddeh throws suspicion at Ambar, Lilan, and HW viewtopic.php?p=281573#p281573
Confused "So, can everyone who is voting state their reasons why? I am following my instincts and still voting for ambar. Also, imo, his lynch should give us more info atm."
Garren "A simple case of information gathering. I feel Ambar and Lilan would provide the most information if reduced to corpses and, while statistics are not in my favour, I feel Lilan's behaviour has been a little more questionable then Ambars."
Lilan "I'm not in favour of lynching MoD today, if that was the impression you got, KoD. I'd rather see village idiots dealt with through night actions rather than through the lynch if possible."
Lilan votes Ambar
Lilan "I'm not content with an ambar lynch or a lilan lynch, and I'll admit I haven't been as driven in this game as I could have been. I was busy until yesterday and didn't want to make a case on a player with barely and time until the deadline."
Lilan "i guess i might as well claim[.] I automatically redirect any ability that targets me to either do or tai, whichever is in the game. I don't know anything about music theory, but it seems to me there are a set of intervals which make up the town, and then three of them are randomly selected to be modified into augmented intervals, and those are the scumteam. My ability interacts with do (non augmented) or tai (augmented do). Tai would be a scum player, and do would be a town player. If Tai is in the game i assume do would be their fakeclaim, though I don't want to game the mod that much. My name is Ti."
Ambar "Wow...I've got more posts than Hello World, but I'm scum for not posting enough. I've got twice as many as confused, but HW doesn't notice that. I've got almost 6 times as many as Scar....nothing there[.] You've been tunneling on me for a while now. It's pretty clear that you're scum in my mind. Right now, with not much time left, I'm willing to keep my vote where it is. as I'm still pretty sure that Lilan is scum, but I'd happily jump to a HW wagon, if one was started. I could explain my absence, nothing more that problems in the real world. I'll be able to jump on again at least one more time before the deadline."
Lilan "tunneling is a town-tell"
END OF DAY

Vote Count
Ambar (5): MoD, Confused, Rubik, Lilan, HW
Lilan (4): Ambar, Freddeh, Garren, KoD
MoD (1): Numbers
Not Voting: Scarlet, PP
Link to end of day one: viewtopic.php?p=281925#p281925