Yep

Oh I agree, but taking a turn off to play the enchantment is the problem. Anyway, we've had this conversation before.

You can always hold it until a later turn. Cultivate on t3 man, cultivate. Then something big, then something bigger, than card draw forever until you don't need it anymore.

This is exactly my point. You don't ever want to play it because you're too busy casting actual cards that impact the board. You know, all those big bombs that tap you out every turn and don't leave you with three mana to spare.

Not a chance. Not without building a deck that relies too heavily on big creatures. Basically, get cultivate in your oppening hand or die decks. One big stompy plus triumph will dig deep into your deck, and bring out the fatties, without making a build that dies to anything fast, unless it gets the nuts draw.

By that same logic.. Bident of Thasa must be terrible.

In a ramp deck.. finding 3 free mana is not hard. You can cast it the same turn you remove something with Shock/Ground Assault. If you play an early Wild Nacatl.. you can cast it on T3 and get your draw on right away. The other positive of this is that now your.opponent is going to start blowing his best removal early, and dropping his biggest bombs early to try to keep you from drawing.. which plays right into your hands.

Bident draws you cards on the turn you cast it and it has addituonal functionality. Triumph doesn't do anything.

Actually in an Aura Pump deck Triumph of Ferocity is decent, because you usually have 1 huge creature buffed with auras and it is an additional enchantment for Ethereal Armor.

I can get behind Ethereal Armor synergy because at least it is doing something.

IMO, every good deck has a reliable card draw engine. This is probably down to personal taste, but I believe it strongly. It's even better when that engine works perfectly with what the deck is trying to do, but I think it's almost always necessary. I also really like it when it's enchantment or instant based.

Take for example military intelligence with Goblin Rablemaster. Suddenly, Rablemaster, which is already a threat becomes almost auto-win, unless the opponent removes it right then. Is it as powerful as playing young pyromancer, or Krenko's command? No. But what if you don't draw those cards? And how good are those cards with military intelligence? They are all excellent. Is think twice better? Maybe, because of its synergy with pyromancer, but intelligence works with the other two perfectly, so it's not so clear. Bottom line, you know you will be attacking every turn with at least two creatures, so military intelligence presents nearly certain draw every turn after it has been cast.

Triumph is similar. If you know that you will have a creature with the biggest power on the board, it's going to add significant consistency to the deck, and nearly guaranteed draw.

Both of those enchants create an immediate, almost requirement for the opponent to start blowing removal on everything. No tricks, no chump blocking, targets must be destroyed or they will be overwhelmed, and fast.

DJ gets it.

Hakeem is prejudiced. He wants everything now now now.. a product of our instant gratification society. He can't fathom taking a turn off to setup a card draw engine that buries the.opponent in card advantage. I was watching Mobius play the Esper artifacts list.. and he was in the same situation with Bident.. but he ultimately decided (and verbalized) "I just need to suck it up and put it out there." He did.. and by the end of the match he was 13 cards deeper than his.opponent bc he sucked it up.. all without ever cracking a capsule.

To some people.. investments just aren't worth it.. they have to realize their.profit instantly. I say these.people have no vision.

You.act.like Triumph never draws cards. You can't even wrap your head around.the.idea that it actually works.. you simply have your mind made up that you'll never get anything off of it.. and you're flat wrong.

I honestly see card advantage as the single most important thing in deck building. It's not just card draw, it's cards that allow you to 2-1 opponents, it's those types of things. It's not always obvious, but a lot of the time it's the only thing I have in mind when I'm trying to build. (By no means is this true in every deck I post here, I'm not suggesting that at all, but it's certainly true of any build I take seriously)

People get this, and that's why they consider pulling a land from a deck to drop the count lower in low-CMC builds. They get it and that's why they run cards like PC or Anger of the Gods. But a lot of times they miss how important and effective it can be in terms of digging deeper than your opponent.

Of course, all the while, they will build/play GY decks, perhaps never understanding that the reason those decks are so dominant is that they are giving you the possibility of digging super far into your deck and expanding your hand tremendously thanks to recursion options.

I don't think (not even for a second) that Hakeem doesn't get this. In fact, I'm certain he does. But, some types of builds deserve to be tried, and some cards are far more powerful (in the right deck) than they are when taken on their own merit. Triumph, and military are two cards that really prove the concept. Try splashing U into any white weenie deck that goes wide. Throw MI in there, and just watch what happens every time you put it into play. So much better than Mentor of the Meek in those decks, it's almost ridiculous.

Oh and BTW!!! Every single card that does something for free when it's in play should be taken very seriously. Sometimes they are too expensive, and they can be safely ignored. But any card that does something for free, no matter how innocuous, can probably be built around, and often can be extremely Spike when used properly. Take Seance as an perfect example. That card was largely ignored, until a couple of us pointed out how ludicrously powerful it actually is. Angelic Accord is similarly ridiculous, but only when built around. I think Triumph and MI are actually quite similar, and they are even cheaper. They should not be ignored.

I've never had trouble playing against the card. Either I'm playing aggro and it's too slow, I'm playing midrange and I can just land bigger dudes, or I'm playing control and I just kill and counter their ****. It's really bad for three mana.

This discussion is happening here because beast says Naya has a ton of bombs to turn it on, which I agree with. But take my bomb-filled Naya Midrange found here.

Where do you slot Triumph? How many copies do you run? What comes out to make room for it?

@DJ, I get card advantage. You can't compare it to MI at all because MI costs two and draws you a card on the turn it's played (unless you're terrible). MI is one of the best cards in my Dimir Unearth deck, it's an awesome card. Triumph is basically trash.

Cut 2 Packleaders for it.. play 5 drops you actually wanna swing with. Packleader is basically a do.nothing card bc you very seldom want to.engage it.in combat.

You're also no.accounting.for what Triumph does to your opponents mindset. Now they have to try to.top you/remove your dudes to.prevent card advantage from spiraling.out of.control. It causes them to blow their.load. (watch Hakeem ignore this point)

Packleader outclasses Triumph in draw power like Michael Jordan outclasses my two-year old in a dunk contest.

Easier to remove, costs more, and you're scared to block/attack with it.

You can't be serious here. This has to be trolling. I'm on the verge of reporting your post.

I'm not saying Packleader is bad.. actually Packleader is better in a lot of decks. But in these colors.. with these creatures.. Triumph works well. I can actually go back a few pages where you admitted it.. something akin to "I can see it in these colors, Thoctar makes it so!" Yeah man.. yeah.

Also.. you still didn't address the point I said you wouldn't.