I think you want 2 demons for a toolbox style deck. I don't like obelisk, sure it's cute discarding a card to seance it back but what is wrong with casting the card then using seance when it dies. It's not like you are discarding in turn 3 to seance on 4. It is at least turn 7 before you discard. At that point you can cast every creature in the deck.

I am a big fan of Obelisk in other decks but not here. Sure, it has a lot of useful abilities, but to justify the high cost and inability to be seanced it needs to stick on the board for a number of turns. Not only is the deck fast enough if it is on its "A" plan, your "B" plan is planar cleansing, which does not mix with Obelisk.

Personally if you want a little versatile board interaction try running a singleton peel.

Forget about Obelisk, mobius has found the correct tech to get Maniac out of your hand: Dinrova Horror. Bouncing something of your own and discarding the Maniac is a pretty sweet way to go about it. Mobius says style points if you Seance the Horror targetting Seance then Cleanse the board and recast your Seance afterwards.

About Wall of Omens, I think it's absolutely necessary here. It's not that Seance is the best card in the deck but rather that Seance IS the deck. Omens has tremendous synergy with the just stay alive and mill plan and maxing out on two-drops means a robust early game given all the taplands.

If I could play more cards I would jam 3 wall. Hakeem can you take a look at my list and suggest any cuts for wall?

I played the deck with 3x Wall of Omens instead of Gravedigger, Resolute Archangel and a Treasured Find.
With the additional defense I never really needed the Archangel. I'm not a fan of Gravedigger.
Maybe cutting one Find isn't the best solution? Maybe 1x Planar Cleansing would be enough with Treasured Find and Archaeomancer?

I can't get behind any cuts of Planar Cleansing.. you're going to want to cast it every match. I guess if you're running 3x Spider Spawning you don't need it.. I think those two cards share the same slot.

So mobius put in 20+ games of testing against his own decks piloted by the AI and I've taken his suggestions, resulting in the updated table. It does go against some of the personal restrictions I made but it is a toolbox deck capable of handling a lot of different matchups because of all the singletons. The key to getting away with it is the sheer amount of self-mill and tutoring. Here's the link:

http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4996&p=286757#p286757

So much for the thrill of the hunt or whatever.. now it's just 'Seance Craterhoof and win.' I knew your inner Spike would rear it's (predictable) ugly head. I would be surprised if you ever win with Laboratory Maniac again.. why would you? You'll get your Spawning, Seance the hoof and win.. you'll never see the bottom of the deck. It's sad really. You were doing something cool and special.. now it's just more overplayed, traditional Spike shenanigans. Something pure and cool.. has become foul.

well too be fair the hoofing (for me atleast) is with like 5 cards left in the deck) at that point it's just deciding what win you want

I'm just gonna put this right here

Hakeem928
22 hours ago
 
+GermanHDR It's not the kill, it's the thrill of the chase.

It only took 22 hours to get back to being about the kill. I am disappoint.

Except it's just an alternate win condition that's only there if needed. Lab Maniac is Plan A here, I just have options if that plan goes awry.

Also, I did note that this was a week of testing so I started with the one-trick pony as a branching-off point. As it stands now, it's just a toolbox that has game in a lot more matchups.

pff you still didn't go with the hardcore combo

Hoof with 1 spawning? How is that playing out? I could see dropping to 2 but not 1

Resolute and Dinrova are great additions.. I can see a single spawning bc of fliers. Hoof just isn't needed though

Maniac as wincon number one, toolbox in case of disruption. There are lots of Visionaries and Wayfinders and Assistants here that don't need Spiders for Hoof to be effective.

Ok after more testing wall of omens is needed for extra defence.

Hakeem - our lists are getting very close to being the same list. I still think you want 2 spider spawning, planar cleansing and rune-scarred demon. This is my current list.



I am trying horror on your (Mobius') suggestion. Grave digger has been underwhelming so got cut. If horror does not end up being good it will probably become the 3rd visionary but I am happy with the other 59 cards.

Only 1x RSD I can agree with - the odds are pretty good you will mill what you want anyway and be able to get seance back with treasured find.
Horror is cute but I just prefer to run 2x maniacs to avoid that scenario, or alternatively just include 1x think twice. Including a card just to deal with such a specific scenario is overkill IMO.

One thing I am pretty sure about is that you want 2x cleansing. If things are going well with seance and all you don't have to use it. A reset button benefits this deck more than most - your opponents need board presence to kill you, you just need to get some mill going faster. Generally I like to wipe first and seance later. Archaeomancer at two or three copies helps with that plan because she allows you to not waste your precious treasured find on cleansing.

I think what people aren't seeing w/r/t Hoof is that Hoof does not need spawning to be lethal. A board of 2 hedron crabs, a satyr, and an elvish visionary is lethal if you cast hoof on it. I guess my concern is that a lot of these one ofs are high CMC, and the deck is not really set up to hard cast them.

There are only 7 cards above 5 mana and in this deck you usually hit your first 7 or 8 land drops thanks to all the cantrips and wayfinders. I have won 2 games tonight buy casting craterhoof on turn 8.

I still like 2 rune-scarred demon. I like being able to grab whatever card pulls me out of the situation I'm in even if that is grabbing a treasure find to grab the card from the graveyard.

From testing cutting the 2 visionaries has not hurt the early turns as we have so many early plays. But it has given the deck more consistency in the late game.

I started testing with Hakeem's list yesterday and made several tweaks resulting in Monk and I being on the same page (although it's nice to see Hakeem come around on the couple additional win conditions). I agree that a 2nd copy of both RSD and SS are worth the slots (one copy of each is fine but I'd rather have the access to either card earlier than later).

The Horror seems like it could have some interesting toolbox uses though. It's worth the testing (although the deck preforms quite well so it's just more gravy at this point).


elk

I'm surrounded by Spikes! Spikes everywhere! It's like being at the Legion of Doom fan club.

I guess I have to put in a 'MWM looking for other M or F to share in non-optimized MtG games that don't include the most obvious cards per color combo." Even the guy on here named Johnny comes off as a Spike.

I guess I'm stuck with Eon... But that's not such a bad thing