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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:52 pm 
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Dr_Demento wrote:
"601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities
that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller
had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority."

If this a typo, do I misunderstand priority, or does casting a spell screw with AP/NP order?

APNAP order applies in a number of situations, but not in this one. It's pretty clear in the priority section:

Quote:
116.3. Which player has priority is determined by the following rules:

116.3a The active player receives priority at the beginning of most steps and phases, after any turn-based actions (such as drawing a card during the draw step; see rule 703) have been dealt with and abilities that trigger at the beginning of that phase or step have been put on the stack. No player receives priority during the untap step. Players usually don’t get priority during the cleanup step (see rule 514.3).

116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.

116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.

116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player’s mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.


There's no generalized rule about APNAP applying everywhere. The rules apply it on a case-by-case basis and specify it when they're doing so.

I'll let someone with more rules experience answer razor's question, because I don't feel like wading through the layers section right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:30 pm 
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I have been playing that wrong this entire time, and that is actually kind of important. If I ask for responses to my spell, I'm saying it will resolve if they don't do anything...

Good to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:38 am 
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razorborne wrote:
when exactly does Mul Daya Channelers get their bonuses, layer-wise? the +3/+3 would be in 7c, and the mana ability would be in 6, but...

613.9. Some continuous effects affect players rather than objects. For example, an effect might give a player protection from red. All such effects are applied in timestamp order after the determination of objects’ characteristics. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.6 and 613.7).

613.10. Some continuous effects affect game rules rather than objects. For example, effects may modify a player’s maximum hand size, or say that a creature must attack this turn if able. These effects are applied after all other continuous effects have been applied. Continuous effects that affect the costs of spells or abilities are applied according to the order specified in rule 601.2e. All other such effects are applied in timestamp order. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.6 and 613.7).


those seem to imply that the top card of your library isn't even revealed at that point. so when do the bonuses happen?
6 and/or 7c. It's late, so solid reasoning escapes me for the moment, but if all else fails the card works because it not working would be stupid. IIRC, 613.9/10 are really only there so that the rules actually mention that such effects get applied at some point and to order max hand size effects and the like appropriately, not really to force them to happen after characteristic-modification effects.

I'll mention it and see if a fix is warranted.

Dr_Demento wrote:
If I am paying for Devastating Dreams by cracking Chromatic Sphere, I assume there is no way for me to prevent having the card drawn eligible for discard?
Correct--the card you draw's going to be eligible, no matter what.

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Also, do you know of anyway to abuse being unable to pay costs in order to discard your preferred card at random?
There is none, but even if there was you'd be getting penalties from the judges for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:49 am 
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6 and/or 7c. It's late, so solid reasoning escapes me for the moment, but if all else fails the card works because it not working would be stupid. IIRC, 613.9/10 are really only there so that the rules actually mention that such effects get applied at some point and to order max hand size effects and the like appropriately, not really to force them to happen after characteristic-modification effects.
so the reason I'm asking is because I accidentally walked into the Volrath's Shapeshifter trap with a card that copies the top card of your library and I'd really rather avoid the "full text" wording if possible so I wanted to see if there was some mechanism that delayed effects until the card was revealed. sounds like there isn't which is dumb.

one last flail at not having to use terrible wording: what would the consequences of combining layers 1 and 2 and letting dependency sort everything out be? I can't see any. I know why they have to apply in the order they do, but all the examples I've seen are ones dependency would solve if the two layers were combined. blowing up the layer system to avoid a dumb wording seems silly, but I like the design and I don't want to punt it.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:01 am 
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I advise turning it into a triggered ability instead. Messing with layers is just...messy.

I'm tired enough that that seems funny. I should probably go to bed.

Pretty sure combining Copy & Control would break something. Again, too tired to figure it out right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:58 am 
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I did not know I had to assign the trample damage to the player. It's even basically relevant if you think opponent has instant speed prevent 1 damage or something (and you care about the creature a lot more than the extra damage)

So yeah, Chu got hosed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:09 pm 
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You choose damage distribution as it is dealt, so you don't need to worry about instant speed effects.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:06 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
Shadowchu wrote:
When the judge comes back, he asks about the damage step that just happened. Basically they thought we missed assignment of damage and neither of them heard that my opponent said "take four". So the floor judge explains that it was procedure because it was necessary to determine if both players were maintaining game state correctly or if I was cheating. Then the judge goes on to explain how my opponent's responsibility to assign trample damage correctly which I think is providing him with game play advice. I ask the floor judge to bring the head judge as I felt that this has not been handled properly as in this exchange all that happened was that I was implied to be cheating as well as my opponent now is definitely going to remember how trample works for the rest of the match. The head judge gives a similar response about how the situation was handled and explains how this is the best way to protect the integrity of the rules.

So, my question is, was this situation handled properly? I feel all that happened was that I came out on the short end of the stick, even if it's something that is not totally critical. In general it makes me wary of letting people's friends watch the match because they are going to screw up the game for me. I have no idea what type of recourse I was looking for, but I feel that the judging in this instance didn't help me in any way.
I...from your description I don't even know how it was handled. All I'm getting is that a judge was called, there was concern you might be cheating, and the head judge was brought in and agreed with...whatever the floor judge said, though I don't know what that was.

What, specifically, was the friend/judge's concern? What questions were you and your opponent asked? Was a penalty assessed? If so, what was it?

far as I can tell, the friend saw Chu not taking trample damage, didn't realize that the player had explicitly told him to "take 4", and asked the judge to intervene, which effectively provided his opponent with strategy advice while implying that Chu was cheating when they weren't.

:duel:

Yeah, pretty much this.

I don't remember the floor judge's explanation exactly, but it was along the lines of figuring out whether or not the game state was properly maintained. On top of this, the judge also advised that both of us make sure that we observe the combat step in the proper way and assign damage and record damage properly.

My objection is that proper game state was maintained and we both followed the rules correctly so basically the judge, via my opponent's friend, got game play advise through a judge which I don't think should happen. I just don't see how people who are less invested in the match have the ability to comment in ways that can be detrimental to one of the players. In terms of cheating and such I can see how this is fine, but the way judges are called it's very obvious what happened.

I was just very frustrated about the series of events. I don't see this happening all of the time but I felt that the way this was handled was poorly.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:44 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
I was just very frustrated about the series of events. I don't see this happening all of the time but I felt that the way this was handled was poorly.

yeah, I definitely agree it seems bad, although I'm not really sure what the judge could've done differently once they'd been called. maybe not say anything about the damage step but I suspect as soon as the friend called them the issue was apparent.

if anything maybe warn the friend not to superfluously call judges in the future? I don't know if warning spectators is a thing.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:47 pm 
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You're allowed to disqualify spectators.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:52 pm 
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You're allowed to disqualify spectators.

I know this but I don't want to really want to do this. I think it lowers the quality of the tournament as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:45 am 
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Shadowchu wrote:
I don't remember the floor judge's explanation exactly, but it was along the lines of figuring out whether or not the game state was properly maintained. On top of this, the judge also advised that both of us make sure that we observe the combat step in the proper way and assign damage and record damage properly.

My objection is that proper game state was maintained and we both followed the rules correctly so basically the judge, via my opponent's friend, got game play advise through a judge which I don't think should happen.[...]
I'm afraid I still don't understand. What gameplay advice did your opponent...oh, wait, you blocked the Siege Rhino?! And then your opponent didn't assign trample to you, the spectator called a judge, and the judge then came in to make sure everything was okay, which effectively reminded your opponent that Rhino tramples. Oh, OK. (Total side note, but why the heck did you block the french vanilla instead of the Tasigur and not only guarantee taking less damage but also kill the creature with an ability that actually matters? I was thinking you blocked Tasigur this whole time, which really screwed me up.)

So if I understand things correctly now, then depending on the wording used and questions asked, there's likely a better way the floor judge could have gone about investigating, but your opponent not remembering how his own cards work is a notoriously fragile situation--the spectator making the call in the first place could have been enough to remind him. And once your opponent has been reminded that oh right, trample's a thing, the damage is done and there's no way to un-remind him.

A judge call reminding your opponent of things he's overlooking definitely isn't ideal, but the possibility is a necessary evil--judges need to be able to step in on games to investigate possible infractions, and any time that happens, it's possible there's going to be footprints left behind, however faint.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:19 am 
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Shadowchu wrote:
You're allowed to disqualify spectators.

I know this but I don't want to really want to do this. I think it lowers the quality of the tournament as a whole.

So you think that lowers the quality of the tournament, but you're upset that someone reminded a player of a stupid mistake?

I honestly think its a bit shady of someone not to personally remind an opponent of trample damage.

There's a difference in not advising your opponent on how they tap their lands and telling the opponent they missed something that very clearly would have happened outside of a slip of the mind. The instances in which its better to assign all the trample damage to the creature rather than the opponent are so few and far between its just polite to clarify that they are assigning it all to your creature.

Even if the amount you took that turn wouldn't have changed since the opponent announced damage, a polite reminder doesn't really affect the game.

Edit: and as far as the actual event. I was as confused as Grifter regarding the blocking, but I think the rest of the post sums up my feelings on the actual event pretty well. (as for the blocking...blocking the trample seems to prevent taking future damage when you only have the 3/3 left after the interaction. May not have been a bad call not knowing the rest of the game details. Based on what was said only I would have assumed the opponent would have let Rhino through and saying "take 4" would have been a real possibility based solely on that expectation. Dumb mistakes happen.)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:25 am 
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Shadowchu wrote:
I don't remember the floor judge's explanation exactly, but it was along the lines of figuring out whether or not the game state was properly maintained. On top of this, the judge also advised that both of us make sure that we observe the combat step in the proper way and assign damage and record damage properly.

My objection is that proper game state was maintained and we both followed the rules correctly so basically the judge, via my opponent's friend, got game play advise through a judge which I don't think should happen.[...]
I'm afraid I still don't understand. What gameplay advice did your opponent...oh, wait, you blocked the Siege Rhino?! And then your opponent didn't assign trample to you, the spectator called a judge, and the judge then came in to make sure everything was okay, which effectively reminded your opponent that Rhino tramples. Oh, OK. (Total side note, but why the heck did you block the french vanilla instead of the Tasigur and not only guarantee taking less damage but also kill the creature with an ability that actually matters? I was thinking you blocked Tasigur this whole time, which really screwed me up.)

So if I understand things correctly now, then depending on the wording used and questions asked, there's likely a better way the floor judge could have gone about investigating, but your opponent not remembering how his own cards work is a notoriously fragile situation--the spectator making the call in the first place could have been enough to remind him. And once your opponent has been reminded that oh right, trample's a thing, the damage is done and there's no way to un-remind him.

A judge call reminding your opponent of things he's overlooking definitely isn't ideal, but the possibility is a necessary evil--judges need to be able to step in on games to investigate possible infractions, and any time that happens, it's possible there's going to be footprints left behind, however faint.

I blocked Siege Rhino because Tasigur is a Legend and because the Kitchen Finks I have in my hand can chump Tasigur better than Rhino. I could also double block Tasigur with the beast token plus Kitchen Finks afterwards. And if he activates Tasigur he isn't playing more spells so I'm okay with that.

I guess my objection is that this could be a case of outside information? His friend did it through a judge but does that apply here? I completely agree with the idea that judges need to be able to step in and investigate because otherwise a lot more cheating and foul play would happen during events if you could only get penalized if a judge was watching. i just feel that this integrity was taken advantage of even if I don't think the people involved meant it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:38 am 
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POSValkir wrote:
Shadowchu wrote:
You're allowed to disqualify spectators.

I know this but I don't want to really want to do this. I think it lowers the quality of the tournament as a whole.

So you think that lowers the quality of the tournament, but you're upset that someone reminded a player of a stupid mistake?

I honestly think its a bit shady of someone not to personally remind an opponent of trample damage.

There's a difference in not advising your opponent on how they tap their lands and telling the opponent they missed something that very clearly would have happened outside of a slip of the mind. The instances in which its better to assign all the trample damage to the creature rather than the opponent are so few and far between its just polite to clarify that they are assigning it all to your creature.

Even if the amount you took that turn wouldn't have changed since the opponent announced damage, a polite reminder doesn't really affect the game.

Edit: and as far as the actual event. I was as confused as Grifter regarding the blocking, but I think the rest of the post sums up my feelings on the actual event pretty well. (as for the blocking...blocking the trample seems to prevent taking future damage when you only have the 3/3 left after the interaction. May not have been a bad call not knowing the rest of the game details. Based on what was said only I would have assumed the opponent would have let Rhino through and saying "take 4" would have been a real possibility based solely on that expectation. Dumb mistakes happen.)

Why would I remind my opponent of trample damage when it is his job to assign it. It's like reminding your opponent that he could play a land for the turn, or cast a spell. If my opponent doesn't know the rules of the game it's not my job to teach him. I think the people calling my play shady are people who don't understand the rules, quite frankly. You are allowed to assign trample damage the way you want.

I was playing for top-8. Next time you're a tournament, practice what you preach and give your opponent strategical advice during the game. After the game, I'm glad to talk about decks and game play decisions. During the game, I'm not going to give them any help. I didn't try to scum the guy, he's the one that said "take 4". I don't know why, but ignorant people keep thinking I'm an angle shooter for doing what I did.

I really don't think you understand how Competitive REL events work. It's fine that you want to have an opinion on the situation but maybe you should familiarize yourself with the tournament scene and environment more before making judgments of people.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:40 am 
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Just a difference of opinion. Further opinion stuff:
Spoiler

Obviously at higher level scenarios the amount of reminders you can give is severely limited (like if they already passed the phase you cant say "don't worry about it, just cast the rebound, we haven't taken any other actions yet"). In your scenario, there was really no way for you to have caught the mistake and there wasn't a need to mention anything. But the next time they have an opportunity to assign trample damage I would definitely give a gentle reminder after I blocked...in the form of "trample damage?" I don't think you did anything shady in this scenario, but how upset you are about the scenario indicates you would have preferred an easy victory based off actions that aren't really indicative of a lack of skill at the game. A mistake like that is more indicative of a mental failing which may be based on any number of things.

Thats fine if you feel ok winning that way, but the person who called the Judge over, and the Judge themself, all made the same mistake the player did...they forgot a rule (or didnt act optimally). Why would you feel it degrades the quality of the tournament to disqualify the observer or get the judge removed, when youre upset that your opponent didn't have to suffer from not playing optimally? Seems like it would be more consistent to think all three shouldhave to suffer a penalty from their not optimum actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:10 pm 
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As usual you stand on some nonsense moral high ground and have no idea what you're talking about. I love this "I'm not judging you as a person" when you clearly are.

There are actions in which you are forced to take. Untapping permanents, drawing a card, etc. I will remind my opponent of this because they are forced to do these things. However, trample does not automatically happen. You have to assign damage. This is the main difference.

Another big thing is that I play on MTGO. You don't play online, but when you play MTGO you learn all of the steps of the game and precise game actions. When I play in paper, I vocalize the moving between all steps of the game as necessary. I verbally stated "damage?" in which he said "take four". Based on tournament procedures, that means he has assigned combat damage the way he wanted to, and in this instance legally. If playing by the rules some how makes me lesser in terms of your warped sense of sportsmanship and morality, then you are the one who needs to take at look at yourself. If I'm at FNM or something low stakes, I will 100% of the time remind my opponent because that is the nature of the event; casual.

The assumptions you make are ridiculous. I'm not looking for an easy victory. I don't know how you got that into your head but jumping to conclusions as usual. I'm trying to make sure my opponent doesn't get outside assistance during a tournament. That's the point. If you actually read what I was saying this would be clear.

I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about.

I don't want people removed from the tournament area because I think spectators are fine. People should be able to watch games because I don't believe in punishing people before they do anything. If somebody is doing something shady around me, I will do something about it, but I'm not going to ask spectators to leave until they do something. I really have no idea how you connect any of the dots together that you connect.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:50 pm 
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For Chu:
Spoiler


I just agree with Grifter's contribution to the scenario...Judges have to be able to question things and sometimes that results in an advantage of some kind for a player...I'd say any Judge interaction gives an advantage. Its unfortunate, but it happens. you specifically said the Judge didn't hear your opponent say "take 4". The Judge acted completely reasonably (outside of insinuating you were cheating).

I also don't think the spectator was wrong. If they have a question and want to grow as a player, they should ask why something happened, if that triggers a Judge into realizing they may have made a mistake or overlooked something...ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:15 pm 
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can I quote you on that

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:27 pm 
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Absolutely! I mean...I wouldn't advise the actual action though :P

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