I originally constructed this deck to more heavily rely on the ability triggers of the creatures, but I swapped out some green pump for some value creatures. Overall, the deck is pretty stable, though sometimes I wish it had more instants/sorcery for explosiveness. It's vulnerable to mass flyers, and seeks to win before late game.
I'd love your input.

[edit] My next experiment with the deck is probably to drop the set of Guttersnipes and a mountain and put in the set of gather courage. Combat tricks are fun, and the snipes kill a little slow.

Not sure how I feel about Aura Gnarlid here. It is cute with Advocate of the Beast but that is really the only synergy it has going for it. You aren't running any Auras, and the the only significant pump spell you are running to make its "cant be blocked" ability relevant is Hunter's Prowess.

I think the idea of Advocate of the Beast with Kiln Fiend is kind of neat.

I also don't think Cultivate is doing a whole lot here for you. You shouldn't need the fixing and you aren't really running any expensive bombs to ramp into early.

My suggestion would be to maybe go

-3 Cultivate

+3 Titanic Growth

Titanic Growth seems like it could be pretty good here. It pumps up Aura Gnarlid to make it potentially unblockable. It triggers Kiln Fiend/Guttersnipe/Pyromancer. You could use it to save your Gnarlids/Fiends/Pyromancer/Guttersnipes.

Anyone letting Kiln Fiend through unblocked would learn a hard lesson as well.

Eonblueapocalypse,
That's a great suggestion. Cultivate also triggers the creatures, but you are probably right the deck doesn't really need it. It just seems so weird to have a green deck without that card...
And Aura Glarlid is indeed really good with pump, be it from spells or creatures.

I wanted to make a Dragons deck using Utvara Hellkite, but he's so dang expensive, you need card draw, ramp, and enough burn to stall to get into it (not to mention other win cons) so this is this only real land combo that I could see that might be able to legit get him out (barring a Counterlash or some other form of yard retrieval).

The idea is simple like other big bomb decks in this meta...stall long enough with the one drops, kill any major threats with Ground Assault and kill big boards with Anger of the Gods. Ramp into your major threats hopefully with Ogre Battledriver on board. Pretty straightforward. Only thing I don't care for is the Satyr Wayfinder's way of throwing the hellkite in the yard...but I'm not sure anything else will keep help with in its place with regard to draw/ramp. Anyway, after testing this, I've won 9 out of 11. One time to a Izzet Burn and the next to a total draw/control - both times I never was able to get momentum which is not uncommon with big bomb decks in this format..

Let me know thoughts. Cheers,

You could dump the wayfinders, and add two darksteel ingots. In my opinion, relying on just four ramp cards is a little too unreliable. You could add two of the cycle-burn spells and maybe swap a swamp in there, you're bound to get to eight mana anyway.

Wanted to build a deck around huge, surprise K.O.'s. So tried to build it around ramp and haste, with some cute things like Wrecking Ogre. Not much to say here. Ramp up, smash face, rejoice.

@ Kjersleif - 22 lands with 10 of them being tap lands in a ramp/fatty deck Even with Cultivate and Darksteel Ingot that's a red flag. I see tempo being a big issue. That and if you don't hit any of your bottom end early (which is....Elvish Visionary?) or your ramp, you'll have a very tough time stabilizing.

I'd highly suggest going to at least 25 lands with a curve like that and down to say 5-7 tap lands. I'd make sure to include Satyr Wayfinder for some fixing/tempo and some sort of filler to help you get to a late game like Krenko's Command. I'm not a fan of Ingot so I'd personally swap them out and then tightly look at which fatties you really want to play for your theme (cause it looks like you're trying to have them all )

Maybe something like:



Now this does cut all the removal package but then again you're on the haste train and should probably be spending all your mana almost every turn so it may not be an issue (that and you only had Ground Assault and Arbor Colossus so it wasn't removing much). I'd even start to look at cutting the Goblin Bushwhacker to toss back in Ground Assault (but that does detract from your theme). Or look to trim somewhere else to get the Assault back in. Just consider that the little weenies are important for keeping you alive long enough to live the dream of hasted fatties (not to mention they are just fine with pumped haste too!)

elk

Hmm, all definitely sound advice! But I'm not too keen on cutting Wrecking Ogre, as I feel he's one of the cornerstones of the "surprise"-theme. I know 22 lands looks atrocious with this curve, but I for one really love the Ingots, and count them as the other 3 lands, which can be cast the same turn as another land. Maybe I went a bit overboard with the taplands, but I'm not too worried about being a turn behind, as long as I get to cast the stuff I need later on. The elves are a must for me in any green deck, as I see them as basically allowing 56-card decks, and thus further decreasing chances of mana problems. Satyr's are nice too, of course. Though I am extremely vulnerable early on, even if I hit the elves..

Without delving too much into that deck, I just gotta say I don't see goblin bushwhacker in a fatty ramp deck

In I prefer young wolf or goblin arsonist for the 1 slot, decent offence and great defence for the 1 cost.

On another note, I think 4 cultivate rules out the 3 ingot, seems excessive

Then don't. I mentioned:

Ultimately it's your build that you want to play so definitely run the guys you want!


It doesn't 'look' atrocious. It IS atrocious. Hitting your land/mana/ramp drops every turn is probably the most important aspect of a fatty deck. You want to keep the Ingots, then go nuts! Just keep in mind that you have to actually hit your 3 lands to cast it (and then it acts as one additional land but doesn't add/draw more). 22 lands can cause you to miss draws and play your 3rd land a couple turns later than T3. 10 Tap lands can cause you to play your Ingots/ramp on turns 4 or 5 which can put you way behind. Not having any chump blockers can further cost you. All of it together is a recipe for disaster.


I'm not sure I follow here. I wasn't implying there were concerns with Visionary. I was saying it's your only early turn play therefore you're only defense until much later in the game. That's a huge concern. If you're fortunate to hit one, you've only got a 1/1 to hold your board until you get to 5 or 6 mana. It's not to say that games won't happen where you get 2 or 3 of them or you hit one visionary and then right into ramp or you're fortunate to keep hitting land drops up to playing fatties but the odds are stacked against you.

The question you need to ask yourself is how do I consistently get to fatty land. You're land counts/ tap lands and lack of low end curve may work from time to time but it's the consistency that is the concern. Also be subjective when grading your win/loss ratio as validation of deck performance. A lot of folks seem to say "oh I went 10-1 or 20-0 etc etc" and don't gauge the experience of their opponent or the caliber/ consistency of the opponent's deck. Spend time recording your own deck results to see how well it's preforming. Record how often you have a board state before turn X, how often you miss land drops, what turns do you actually get to play your ramp on etc etc. Those sorts of measurements will give you a much better indication of how consistent your deck is and therefore how likely it is to be competitive against folks who actually have a clue.

I once again refer to Hakeem's channel when I say this. You'll see that he shows you all the opponents that can come up when playing games (instead of cherry picking games) and there is a steady stream of chaff. It doesn't retract from Hakeem's skill but it doesn't accurately reflect the strength of a build/archetype until he faces a decent opponent. Hopefully it's just a little food for thought.

elk

Indeed it is!

I must admit, I have a tendency to get bored with one playstyle or archetype really fast, so I never really get to refine a deck.. Now I'm suddenly into Bant fog-nonsense, so probably won't play any gruulish fatty-decks in a while lol.. But yeah, I definitely need to consider consistency more.. But there's just so many maddening variables in this web of RNG that we so enjoy, that I find myself just going "fcuk it, I can never calculate that shiet" and just try to force a deck around a few cards I think look fun at the moment.

I tried a similar build over the last couple of days.

I ran 24 land, 4 Cultivates and 2 Ingots.. because if you don't hit lands or ramp on time.. you're dead. You gotta get to 5 mana ASAP.

..and finally.. sadly.. I have come to the conclusion that in these ramp decks, Utvara Hellkite is simply a win more card. I've put it in about 7 different decks so far, and only in that Izzet Counterlash deck (which was mediocre) was it 'good.' Every other deck I've put it in.. it could have been another Wurm, Terra Stomper, Rune Scarred, Sheoldred, Shivan Dragon, etc. and it would have won the game anyway. It's just not as good as Sheoldred (who takes over the game) or Craterhoof (who automatically wins it). I love dragons.. I love Jund/Gruul.. but I had to be honest with my heart when evaluating that thing.. it really just sucks.

I'm also one who likes to switch it up a lot for variety. It's one of the great things with magic.

As for the maddening variables etc, that's what makes the forums so great. You conceptualize a deck and have folks give feedback/ opinions. Then you test/revise as you see fit and make adjustments as you see fit. The ole 'two heads are better than one' adage.

Also please don't be discouraged and think any of my comments were meant as attacks on your idea (unless you're Black Barney - I'm totally out to get that guy!). They definitely weren't intended to be negative in anyway (in fact, the hope is that they were constructive). I like the concept of the deck theme and was just chiming in with my two cents in an attempt to help improve it. I do hope you do take the time to keep working on your deck idea and optimize as best you can (I personally think that's the reason for posting/sharing them in the first place - share ideas, optimize them and get folks to enjoy playing it).

Good Luck!

elk

That's what I was fearing. He looks so fuuuuun..! But there's simply no value to get from him here.. I'd love to see a "smaller" version of him, if such a card exists. Abit like thopter factory. 6 mana 4/4 that spawns 2/2 dragons or something would be alot more useful. I mean, a 6/6 that spawns 6/6's is already win-more on its own lol


Hehe, don't worry. I've been told I get too defensive too easily, but I don't mean to seem ungrateful. I just want to understand why a certain card makes a deck better or worse, or how land and mana-fixing should be properly balanced etc.. So although I apparantly come across as an easily offended goblin, I am actually just an inquisitive... uhh, goblin?

So this is completely spun off of urthmage's list over in the Temur thread (and from another forum member who had shared a similar Temur idea with me but shall remain nameless....) and I decided to just cut Blue all together. Make it a Red/Green Monster deck (well a Dragon theme deck) that had some removal options. Here's the pile I came up with so far (and this also allows me to name a deck appropriately from the Abzan thread discussion).





This is currently in the theorycrafting stages (only a few spins with it) but it's got the standard removal options and ramp skeleton we typically see (Visionary/ Wayfinder/ Cultivate and Anger/ Resounding Thunder/ Ground Assault). Banefire and Hydra for flood. I haven't decided if the Ingots are worth the slots (although it does give extra chances at the cycling on Thunder) or if Packleader/Battledriver are good choices yet. Still think this has a chance at being playable though.

Dragons!!!!!!


elk

Now when someone googles for spoilers for EP VII, their first hit will only bring them to a mediocre deck! They'll be twice disappointed! I love it!

We're going to have egg on our face if headlines tomorrow read, "Dragons in Star Wars??"

I'll give it a spin elk hopefully I don't suck TOO much

This would be awesome! I can just see folks signing up to the site to rage post. Muahahaha!


And hey now.....it's totally your fault. You're the one who made the reference that started this.... just in case...here's the reminder (especially since we want folks who are reading this post to correctly direct their rage...)




elk

couple of notes elk WAY too much land every game was me flooding out. also I think this deck plan would work better if it had some recursion so maybe just go full jund?

There's a few ways to generate mana and a couple outs to flood but I'm surprised at 24 lands that you were flooding out that often. Maybe this is enough evidence to get rid of the Ingots? How many games did you spin the deck?

You also mentioned recursion. Is this because of the Wayfinders or were you having troubles with opponents removal?

I'm glad ya took it for a spin but this was just a silly/fun deck (like Barney said, a mediocre deck at best) so I'm not sure how much time I'll spend on it. Having said that, any feedback is great (and appreciated) and will definitely be used for updating/tweaking. Cause ya know.....DRAGONS!

Thanks!


elk