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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:23 am 
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I just slipped multiple copies of Hardened Scales in a new deck, and I want to make sure I'm not short-changing myself.

When I use an effect that triggers Hardened Scales, do all of the copies trigger simultaneously, or one at a time? If the latter, does one Hardened Scales trigger another?

Example: I have 2 copies and a creature with an outlast ability (say, Herald of Anafenza). I outlast the Herald, and it adds a counter. How many extra counters does this create? Two? Or does one copy trigger the other, and I get... well, I can envision a recursive call that would run until I run out of counters.

Scales isn't a trigger, it's what's called a replacement effect. each replacement effect can only modify a given event once. while technically they function one at a time, once one has added an extra counter it doesn't care what the others do. in your example, your Herald will get 3 counters total.

Magic uses its wordings very precisely: if an ability starts with "when", "whenever", or "at", it's a trigger and uses the stack as normal. if it starts with "if", however, it's a replacement effect and functions as described above.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:25 pm 
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I need a bit of clarification. I think I know how it works, but I just want to make sure.

M opponent has Chronatog in play and activate's it's ability, does stuff, then passes. On my turn I cast Mayor of Avabruck. On my "extra" turn does Mayor transform?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Nope, you cast a spell last turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:46 pm 
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POSValkir wrote:
I need a bit of clarification. I think I know how it works, but I just want to make sure.

M opponent has Chronatog in play and activate's it's ability, does stuff, then passes. On my turn I cast Mayor of Avabruck. On my "extra" turn does Mayor transform?

No. The skipped turn never happens, so on your extra turn, Mayor of Avabruck's ability sees "last turn" as the turn you cast Mayor of Avabruck.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:54 pm 
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Thanks. That's what I thought, but for some reason my mind translates "skip a turn" differently than "extra turn".

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:27 pm 
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Okay I know it's casual so it probably doesn't matter and can be house ruled, but if an ongoing scheme in Archenemy is still ongoing when it's the archenemy's turn again, do they still flip over a new scheme? In an older edition of the DOTP game the card turned face up remained on he deck and it didn't have any ongoing schemes to help my friends and I figure this out.

Also if I have a Kheru Bloodsucker with 2 +1/+1 counters (it's a 4/4) and 2 Wall of Omens and my opponent plays Day of Judgment and all my creatures die, how much life do they lose/I gain? I think it's 6 but wasn't sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:02 pm 
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Vega_Z27 wrote:
Okay I know it's casual so it probably doesn't matter and can be house ruled, but if an ongoing scheme in Archenemy is still ongoing when it's the archenemy's turn again, do they still flip over a new scheme? In an older edition of the DOTP game the card turned face up remained on he deck and it didn't have any ongoing schemes to help my friends and I figure this out.

The archenemy reveals a new scheme on each of their turns, regardless of whether or not they already have an ongoing scheme. There's no limit to how many ongoing schemes you can have.

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Also if I have a Kheru Bloodsucker with 2 +1/+1 counters (it's a 4/4) and 2 Wall of Omens and my opponent plays Day of Judgment and all my creatures die, how much life do they lose/I gain? I think it's 6 but wasn't sure.

Correct, your opponent loses 6 life and you gain 6 life.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:41 pm 
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If you control but do not own Lich's Mirror and would lose by poison, the game ends in a draw right?

:dance:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:50 pm 
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Yup. From the Gatherer rulings.

"If you control *but don't own* Lich's Mirror, Lich's Mirror itself will still be on the battlefield after its effect is finished. If you would lose the game again for any of the reasons above, Lich's Mirror has its effect again . . . and again . . . and again. An involuntary infinite loop will be created, and the game will end in a draw. (In the case of the triggered ability example given last in the list above, it's possible that a player could cause the loop to end while the ability is on the stack. None of the loops caused by state-based actions can be stopped at all.)"

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:45 pm 
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I have future sight in play. the top card of my library is, I don't know, lava axe. I declare it as a spell during my main phase, and the following actions occur in order:

a) it moves from the top of my library to the stack. I reveal the new top card of my library.
b) I declare modes and such. in this case there are none.
c) I declare targets, choosing my opponent.
d) nothing happens in this step in this case.
e) I determine the total cost ( in this case)
f) I get a chance to activate mana abilities. I choose to activate none.
g) I try to pay the costs, but I have no mana, so the game rewinds to before I cast the spell.

in this process, I have effectively done nothing, except that for a split second the top card of my library was different, so now I know the identity of the card second from the top of my library. this seems like it shouldn't happen. does it happen, and if not why not?

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:55 pm 
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I haven't looked for the answer in the comp rules yet, but a quick look at the Gatherer rulings tells us that the next card doesn't get revealed until you finish casting Lava Axe.
Quote:
If the top card of your library changes while you're casting a spell or activating an ability, the new top card won't be revealed until you finish casting that spell or activating that ability.


Edit: Here's the official rule.
Quote:
401.6. Some effects tell a player to play with the top card of his or her library revealed, or say that a player may look at the top card of his or her library. If the top card of the player’s library changes while a spell is being cast, the new top card won’t be revealed and can’t be looked at until the spell becomes cast (see rule 601.2h). The same is true with relation to an ability being activated.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:58 pm 
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It doesn't. I expect 401.6 was written because someone saw the line of play you mentioned and agreed with you that it didn't seem right, and made a rule to make the mid-casting peeking not happen.

401.6. Some effects tell a player to play with the top card of his or her library revealed, or say that a player may look at the top card of his or her library. If the top card of the player’s library changes while a spell is being cast, the new top card won’t be revealed and can’t be looked at until the spell becomes cast (see rule 601.2h). The same is true with relation to an ability being activated.

(and I'm too slow, apparently)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:04 pm 
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ugh that's such a hack solution. but at least a solution exists, so kudos to them for that I guess?

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:43 pm 
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Stick to failing to cast things using Chromatic Sphere mana Razor. That is a much better rules loophole.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:45 pm 
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Dr_Demento wrote:
Stick to failing to cast things using Chromatic Sphere mana Razor. That is a much better rules loophole.

last I heard that was closed too. you can't undo events that cause cards to leave libraries. or at least that's what they told me when I asked about deranged assistant.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:47 pm 
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Noooooo!

Maybe I should actually take the judge test then...

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:20 am 
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How do cards like Winter Orb and Static Orb work with cards that prevent you from untapping certain things during your untap step (like Frost Breath and Back to Basics). For instance, if I have a Winter Orb and Back to Basics in play, can I use the orb to untap a Tropical Island?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:11 am 
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How do cards like Winter Orb and Static Orb work with cards that prevent you from untapping certain things during your untap step (like Frost Breath and Back to Basics).
All of those cards work by restricting what can be untapped during your untap step, and all such restrictions are applied. If something says that one of your permanents doesn't untap, it doesn't untap. If something says that you can only untap a certain number of permanents, you must choose from among the permanents that would actually otherwise untap.

So with all four of those cards in use, you wouldn't be able to untap the creatures affected by Frost Breath at all, nor any nonbasic lands. Of your remaining tapped permanents, you will untap two of your choice, only one of which can be a land. (If you have only one tapped permanent that's not affected by Frost Breath or Back to Basics, that's what untaps.)

For instance, if I have a Winter Orb and Back to Basics in play, can I use the orb to untap a Tropical Island?
No, you can't. Winter Orb doesn't allow you to untap anything--it just stops you from untapping everything else. Your nonbasics won't be untapping at all.

Contrast Winter Orb to Rising Waters. With both out, your lands wouldn't untap during your untap step at all, but you could untap your Tropical Island afterwards with Rising Waters, because Rising Waters has a separate effect that untaps things. Winter Orb does not.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:06 pm 
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So I finally got around to contacting Wizards of the Coast customer support to straighten out the issues with my DCI Number/Account so I could take the Rules Advisor exam, but apparently their phone support is closed right now, despite it clearly being between 7AM and 7PM PCT, even accounting for weird Daylight Savings Time nonsense.

Dang it Wizards, I need validation that I can nitpick anyone at anytime!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:30 pm 
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They're probably low on activities over there due to the Dailymtg.com editor that passed away last monday.

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