Whoa...easy big fella! Did I touch a nerve with Vapor Snag?

Exalted; to me, is about powering up one creature really large and getting that damage directly through to the opponent (not their creatures). The longer you spend working the board, the less you'll get out of the exalted mechanic (the deck appears to have enough fat that it doesn't have to rely on exalted but it was the theme, so may as well build on it). So you including all the exalted creatures in the deck and then stating you don't mind continually smashing into their board is counterproductive and can give the opponent the time they need to 1) set up 2) find the answer(s). I was just suggesting cards that let you swing through the board and get the most out of the triggers (early, mid or late game). Vapor Snag may not be as strong a suggestion as the other two (in this case/theme) but I actually thought Artful Dodge was a good suggestion here. Just two copies could result in 2-4 unblockable attacks. Gods Willing will help ensure the 'spear tip' doesn't get messed with which will be important. Considering how few attacks you actually have to hit with exalted is why I mentioned Snag. You mentioned 'the long game' which; with the fat you have, could be fine but in my opinion, is not where exalted wants to go.

I also mulled this deck over while I was going to sleep last night and thought Knight of the Skyward Eye would be a good fit here. I'd replace Elvish Visionary for it. It would help improve your early mana (only needing to focus on which is super important since you've got Akrasan Squire, Sigiled Paladin and Brimaz, King of Oreskos to be considering) and would let you pump the dude mid/late game on top of the exalted triggers. I think that would be a strong change here.


elk

I tested some games with all 4 cards. In terms of overall usefulness I'd rate them:

1. God's Willing
2. Reprisal/Prey Upon
3. Vapor Snag

God's Willing was super useful. I'd say I used it for protection 75% of the time and unblockability 25% of the time. Keeping key creatures on the field made the difference a lot of the time.

Prey Upon/Reprisal is tie. Killing bombs has been important (monsterfied Nemesis of Mortals was a pain without Reprisal, Vapor Snag was bad there bc it came back so cheap.) That said.. killing utility creatures with Prey Upon has been important too.

Vapor Snag was.. ok. It was good one time (vs Palisade Giant), and subpar the rest of the time. It never let me push through lethal or anything like that, God's Willing did that.

@elk

I'll try Knight of the Skyward Eye and Artful dodge. I think Dodge could be good but I'm not sold on the knight. I want to advance my board and paying 4 mana makes that pretty difficult.

Visionary would likely be the cut.. she helps a lot with early land drops though.. makes mulligans easier. I'm sure she'll be missed.

Visionary is always good and why it finds its way into any build using green. Switching will just help your mana consistency but also give you the 'option' to activate the Knight. Threat of activation is definitely a thing and remember, that becomes a 5/5 at instant speed! That's pretty huge to swing/hit with (even if it costs you a play that turn, you've hit for at least 1/4 of their starting life total). Add any of your exalted triggers and trample/unblockable etc and that little 2/2 is a beast in a late game (can't say the same for visionary). Visionary gets you a card deeper and can chump but if we do a direct comparison based on what you're wanting to do with this deck, I think the Knight has the greater upside.


elk

Tested both. Artful Dodge was good.. getting two activations per card was great for finishing. Now I can save God's Willing for protecting Rafiq 'n friends. Skyward Eye was bad.. really bad. Why would I pay 4 mana to activate him when I can just jam Arbor Colossus/Baneslayer/Battlegrace on turn 5 and have that power permanently? Or play Rafiq and hold up Gods Willing mana? I guess its good vs opponents who don't pay attention to you having 4 open mana while attacking with it. It really underperformed for me. I also did the 'would I rather have this guy or an Elvish Visionary' test whenever I drew him and I would have rather had the elf everytime.

I got some decisions to make. God's Willing is in for sure. When testing, not having the ability to affect my opponents board (permanently) was a problem. There needs to be removal. It's probably going to be Reprisal bc I can favorably block with my little guys, but huge bombs force me to chump and the only creature I would want to chump with is Elvish Visionary.. so killing bombs is more important than picking off utility creatures with Prey Upon.

I need to find 2 spots for Artful Dodge.. it'll probably come off the top. 1 Wurm and something else.

I have said it before, and I will say it again.

Gods Willing is probably the best card in the entire meta currently. For the cost it just does so much for so many decks, saving creatures from removal/bounce, making creatures unblockable, turning trades into chumps, setting up your draws, triggering spell and heroic triggers. Just so much potential for only


As for Knight of the Skyward Eye I have found him to be really good in my Exalted shell. That said, I feel like he is much better in a lower curve version than in one with a lot of big bombs to drop like Beast's deck.

The biggest benefit of Knight of the Skyward Eye in these decks is that it allows you to play around sweepers more easily, particularly Anger. Knight of the Skyward Eye represents a creature that can potentially survive through Anger (albeit with a hefty mana investment), that isn't the big reason he is good against sweepers though.

The biggest thing with Knight is that it allows you to play around sweepers by not having to overextend into them. Having a 2cmc creature that can potentially represent as a 5/5 or higher allows you to potentially kill people without having to devote a ton of creatures to the board. It allows you to slow roll certain matchups where you expect a sweeper, allowing you to keep cards in hand for when that sweeper does go off.

I also like the flexibility it gives. Sure, a lot of times you would rather be spending the mana to play a creature than to buff Knight, but you don't always have to buff the Knight. Once you get to 4 mana, Knight of the Skyward Eye can often get damage though where other creatures otherwise may not, because of the threat of its activated ability.

It opens up a lot of options while attacking which I like. Attacking with Knight with 4 mana open gives you a ton of options. If they block you can often pump and kill one of their creatures, which often isn't terrible for 4cmc to put yourself up a card. If they don't block you can smash them in the face for 5+, or you can always just slip in for that 2 damage and then spend that mana on playing more creatures. They also aren't a completely terrible top deck because they can represent 5+ damage from only a 2cmc creature.

Granted, I can certainly see how they wouldn't be nearly as good in a deck like Beast's though, because it has much more on the higher end to close out games, which means his deck is much less susceptible to bad late game top decks, and getting blown out by sweepers.

You say 'why would I pay 4 mana when you can jam the next turn'. My response would be hand strength (or maybe not overextending). If you're ahead and don't 'need' to play a card, you probably shouldn't (you've got a nice set of early plays with exalted, you should be ahead of most board states normally). If you can beat them down then do so and make them answer your board first. Then play your next bomb. Please don't think this is a slight in your ability and we both know it's relative to the game and sometimes continuing to curve out is the right answer. I'm just saying; In this particular case, you decided to make an exalted theme deck therefore you typically only need to attack with one dude most turns. Unless you're getting farther ahead like a flyer for evasion or answering something on their board or changing your clock or maybe skipping exalted by trying to go wide with damage, I would suggest you continue to pressure with your current board state. If you can't pressure, then advance your board.

This isn't meant to rally for Skyward Knight since it's absolutely your choice on how you want to build/play the deck but I did want to respond because I don't believe it's a 'really bad' suggestion. If you don't like the suggestion, than put it on the shelf next to Vapor Snag.


elk

The reason why I'd want to advance my board state is to deliver knockout blows/keep raising the threat level. Since I've been tinkering with Gods Willing and Artful Dodge.. things like Monsterfied Arbor Colossus made unblockable in addition to exalted triggers has been winning for me.

So you got me interested in spinning your deck idea Mega and have slowly morphed it into the following:



Terra Stomper may also have to go due to the cost concerns (I only saw it 3 times and was able to cast it once but the other two games it was stuck in hand) and could turn into the Stomper Cub (or even Battering Krasis). Skymark Roc has been good but may turn into some sort of removal option (it's just a good little flyer that beats down so I'm not sure). Maybe I just dump the Terra Stomper and turn them into Angelic Edict (that would let me get rid of a gate or two)?

Still though, I've been having some fun with the idea which is definitely the point (it keeps getting tougher to enjoy testing/spinning decks - even with the inclusion of the small DLC's) so thanks for getting me onto this train!


elk

No wonder you can't cast Terra.. there isn't a single forest in the deck lol.

I don't think Edict is necessary here.. I haven't had enchantment trouble except Bident of Thasa. I just need a bomb killer.. like Reprisal. With this early game/lifelink we can favorably block all day. Reprisal has also been good vs fast starting enchantment decks like Ethereal Armor spam, Satyr Hoplite/Furor of the Bitten/etc.

I settled on 2x of Reprisal, God's Willing and Artful Dodge each.. I cut a Wurm and another Visionary. It's been running great. I have 4 forests to support that green devotion. I also have Arbor Colossus instead of those yucky knights of skyward eye

We are pretty close. Another card that has performed well is Soul of Ravnica. The evasion is good and drawing 3 for 7 mana when you're out of gas is great late game. Getting it from the graveyard has been solid too.

It should be. I took your list and then just started making cuts to smooth out mana, curve etc.


It's one of the last green cards I left in from your list but now that green is the splash, the color cost is just brutal. As I mentioned in my other post, I'll probably try a few of the other 'smaller' options as I'd like to still have that trample feature.


I get hit with Reprisal all the time yet every deck I include it in, I find I sit with it in hand a lot and don't get the use out of it I'd like. Angelic is more expensive and slower but it does have the ability to hit any creature I need it to (and enchants if they come up) and I do lub me some exile! We'll try the other trample options first since the deck seems to race reasonably well with its life gain and then toy with the removal options second.


elk

So.. I'm trying something currently. I took out all the Wurms, 1 Stomper and an Artful Dodge.. replaced them with 4x Triton Shorestalkers. It's been really good the first three games. We'll see.

Here's my Bant list currently. The Shorestalkers were good.. but ultimately the deck won just a little less than with the bombs.



I played this pile in Hakeem's latest episode.

Here's where I'm at:




I hate to cut the 2nd Skyward Knight since I want to have an abundance of 2 drops for the sake of the curve/ tap lands but I've been getting some good mileage out of the Banisher Priest and would prefer to have all the copies (for frequency).


elk

All you gotta do is swap 2 Skyward Knights for 2 Terra Stompers or 2 Arbor Colossus.. -2 Island -1 Plains.. and you're golden buddy! I ran into a few counter decks today with this list and Terra sealed the deal both times. I really don't think you need THAT many islands. I mean.. what do you need all that blue mana for? All you need is one source early and maybe two by turn 6. I cut down pretty low on it.

I wanted to ask you about your meta Elk. What decks are you playing against regularly? I have run into A LOT of mono white enchantment decks lately. Having Reprisal has been the difference between winning and losing. I get hit with crap like: Turn 2 Hero of Iroas, Turn 3 Nimbus Wings AND Etheral Armor AND Ordeal of Heliod or a second Etheral Armor.. making Hero something stupid like a 9/10 or so. I would never see turn 5 to cast Angelic Edict. I think the thing that ultimately decides the Reprisal/Edict debate is your meta. There are two creatures that make me wish for Angelic Edict: Guard Gomazoa and Brimaz.. other than them.. I'm fine with Reprisal.. bc I can favorably block pretty much everything with this build.

Another thing.. and I'll be serious this time, no tongue in cheek or sass: I just don't get Skyward Eye Knight at all. The way I see it.. he's not a bomb, he's not Exalted, he doesn't draw cards and he's so expensive to activate that it intrudes on progressing your board. When I pay 4 mana.. I expect big results.. and 3/3 temporary power is not a big effect. Look what Elder of Laurels provides for the same cost, or a Bident of Thasa activation (which is cheaper). Bident lets you dictate favorable blocks (unless your name is Hakeem).. that is a huge effect! Soul of Zendikar lets you permanently add 3 power to your board, etc. etc. etc. I am just not seeing the value here at all. Help me understand. Explain to me how/when you are using it, why its advantageous to pay his high activation cost.. bc from where I'm sitting, he looks like poo.

It was fun to watch.

Goal: Make Polymorph into Craterhoof a deck
Deck Tech here:http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?t=8792

It's not that I want that much blue mana, it's the frequency in which you draw it and when you draw it. You're right that you only need 1 early but how do you get that? How do you give yourself the best chance to have 2 by turn 6? After a certain point it's just filler but it's about getting the color you need when you need it (or at least giving yourself the best chance to). Now this is based on my own testing/recording and experiences so take it with a grain of salt. I find that to have specific early colors, I tend to go with 15-14 mana to get a double cost. 12 is about right for a single cost and 10-8 is about right for filler/splashes. Filler/Splashes you don't usually have early in the curve though.


Aggro/Weenies/Tokens/Goblins are still frequent. It seems any deck Hakeem is show casing that week is everywhere and then of course with the DLC there is a ton of artifact decks and variants of the new cards.


In this case I went Banisher Priest instead. I can still trigger exalted with it and cover it with Gods Willing. Edict is slow, no doubt. Though if I can't manage to stall/trade my way to 5 mana with this sort of deck, I feel I'm doing something wrong. Now it may be I'm way behind on board when I get there and that's a downside too but I feel I should get there. In your example though, it sounds like folks are drawing the nuts on you (granted Ethereal Armor at common is broken - a Boros Aura deck destroyed me on turn 4 with a couple of those and a Nimbus Wings)


Here was my thought process (again, grain of salt). You have at turn 1. T2 you have and turn 3 you have . This screams (to me) - don't put in any other early colors but white!!!! That way you can build your mana properly to give yourself the best chance to get and make the better curved plays for your exalted theme. So if you were to keep it in the white color, what other choices do you have that would fit the build (again considering tap lands and that T2 and T3 are typically going to be 2 CMC cards)? Maybe think of the Knight as a Glory Seeker for now who has the potential to be more when you need it. I'll also refer to your Hakeem game where Hakeem said 'Why didn't he swing with Baneslayer - that's what I would have done' and in the comments below you said you were deterring him from drawing cards. Granted Sigiled Paladin has first strike but Knight has the potential to trade even bigger or do more damage (for exactly the type of case you used it in the match. You're only going to swing with one guy so what guy do you swing with and why. It's a problem for exalted and always has seemed one. If you can swing directly through for damage than it's a 'boss' attack. If you can't you swing with a 'winning' card and they just chump. So Knight is a good choice to swing with since it doesn't matter if you lose it but it can trade well beyond itself. Especially when the 'chumps' get to the larger creatures on board).

Now this is just for you Mega - I went into green and dropped the Knight (so you'll sleep better at Knight night)





elk

Just to add to the discussion, this is my bant exalted with ramp into fat with white early blockers + some draw which I tested in december. It did pretty well, so maybe it's gonna be of some help.

Knight is a lot better than you give it credit for.

As I had mentioned before. The card works well at allowing you to "get there" without overextending into Sweepers specifically BECAUSE it allows you to covert that mana into big swings that put your opponent on a quick clock rather than spending more time tapping out to play more creatures. It also has the potential to survive Anger/Shock/Auger Spree/Resounding Thunder and a lot of other removal at instant speed. It makes a good top-deck in decks which run a glut of low CMC cards because it is still a 2 drop, yet can potentially represent a 5/5 creature. Compare this with many of the 2 drops in the format which usually don't amount to much of a threat once you reach the late game, most especially if you are already lacking a board presence or cards in hand during said late game.

The card also tends to go unblocked a lot specifically because of its activated ability. Most people know most anything short of a 4-5 drop isn't going to survive an encounter with Knight if they block and you have that 4 mana open. Meaning a lot of times you are given the choice of "do 2+ damage and play another creature" or "do 5+ damage and likely tap out" which I don't think is terrible for a 2cmc card. Nothing says you HAVE to spend the 4 mana to pump him all the time.

I feel it also has the potential to put an opponent on a pretty quick clock with the Exalted plan. T1 Squire, T2 Paladin attack for 3 with Squire, T3 Knight attack for 4 with Paladin, T4 attack for 7 with Knight (or attack for 4 with Knight and use that mana for something else) isn't a bad place to be at for a more aggressive deck.

He has the potential to trade up like a champ as well. A 2 cmc card that can trade with 5/5 creatures alone can be extremely useful. He is even better on the Exalted plan though. With one Exalted trigger you have a 2 drop that can trade with a 6/6 creature (which is honestly equivalent to most 5-6 drops in the format) and with 2 Exalted triggers he is up to a 7/7. That is a 2cmc creature that can effectively trade with a Pelakka Wurm.

Also keep in mind that Knight of the Skyward Eye represents a threat in single package. You mentioned Elder of Laurels in comparison for the effect the activated abilities provide. Keep in mind that the effect from Elder may be better overall, but it also requires a bunch more setup. Elder can certainly give that same +3/+3 or even higher, and can do it to whichever creature you like which makes it overall much more well rounded. Remember though that Elder requires other creatures for it to really get the most bang for its buck though. You need at least 2 other creatures on the table other than Elder for it to provide that same effect (+3/+3) that Knight does.

Now having 2 other creatures may not exactly be that difficult for an Aggressive deck to field, but what happens in scenarios where your first couple plays get hit with removal, or you eat a sweeper before you can finish the job. What happens when you are left with 0 cards in hand and are relying on those top decks? In these scenarios, Knight is the superior option, because it is a self-contained package. Knight can potentially get the rest of the way by itself, Elder has a much more difficult time doing this because it relies on those other creatures.


As I said before, I feel like Knight is a good card (especially in an Exalted build), but I feel like the card really shines in decks with a much lower curve that can take advantage of what it does best and actually get to use all the advantages it provides. Which generally tend to be lost on higher CMC builds who are less susceptible to sweepers/early removal and bad top decks because they are running cards like Beast's lover Terra Stomper