on the topic of league versus dota, The vocal majority of either playerbase will usually point to the other as more snowbally, especially if they've only dabbled in the other game. I don't know which snowballs harder statistically but the arguments I've heard from both sides sound reasonable.
Dota has harder rubberbanding mechanics (loss of gold on death + increased bounty) than league does. I don't actually know what league has to prevent snowballing now that I think about it so i guess there goes my argument. I would guess that league is more snowbally than dota.
Most mobas snowball naturally in two ways. The first is that they're tug-of-war based. In a simplified single-lane moba, if the enemy is pushed to your core and you haven't taken their first tower you'll need to win several fights in a row without losing one to win the game. The second is that they are often resource based, and that resources are awarded based on performance. This leads to a feedback loop where winning teams have more opportunities to make plays and get further ahead than losing teams have to catch up.
Adventure time battle party was the best moba I've played for tackling this problem. They didn't have gold and teams were rarely more than one or two levels apart even in the case of stomps. The dual win condition makes the tug-of-war aspect less apparent. If your enemy is close to winning on one objective, you can push them on another.
Joined: Oct 30, 2013 Posts: 16394 Location: Secret Lair
LOL makes defensive items cheaper than offensive ones. If you are behind by a little bit, then you build tankier. Combine this with secondary objectives that actually mean something to your entire team, and it's very much possible to come back without your opponents having to make real large mistakes.
If defensive items are cheaper the opponents can just buy the same defensive items plus some offensive ones and have an advantage right?
And how do secondary objectives stop snowballing? Won't losing a fight over dragon or baron just make things worse?
For the first question:
Spoiler
Everything is so expensive that you would have to be stupidly ahead to be able to afford both, and the people who are able to snowball that much would rather get the offensive items since that's the only way to capitalize on your snowballing. Getting tankier on snowball champs doesn't really give you that much more of an advantage, and it's still pretty fair if you are buying tank unless you get stupidly ahead.
For example, for an adc my first two items might cost 3800 and 2500 (with me wanting to buy the 3800 one first), while for a tank my first items might costs 2450 and 2550. Then, when we get into the components, the things that build into the defensive items are better, and cheaper meaning they can be obtained more often.
A good example is Spectre's Cowl vs Needlessly Large Rod. The rod gives 80 flat Ap for 1600 G. The defensive item costs 1200 G, gives me 200 Health and 35 MR, and gives me a health regen passive. Nothing builds into the rod, meaning you have to buy it all at once, while the spectre's cowl builds from two items that cost 400 G and 500 G and both give you some tanky stats by themselves. The game is designed this way to try to counteract snowballing a bit.
For the second question:
Spoiler
The point of secondary objectives is that the losing team can take one or the other and since there are multiple ones a team can't really sit on both unless they are really really far ahead. You would also have to be stupidly far ahead to take either one with direct opposition from the other team, due to the strength of the monster itself. Since the weaker monster takes 5 kills over like 20 minutes? to get the huge buff, these are actually also pretty fair.
the main problem with league in terms of snowballing is that expensive items are more cost-effective as well as giving better stats, so if you can get ahead early your items inherently give you a big advantage. as an example, BF sword not only gives more +AD than pickaxe, but it gives more damage per gold than pickaxe does as well. so if you manage to get a kill on the enemy ADC and get a BF sword when they can only get a pickaxe, you'll naturally get a huge advantage.
This isn't the case in dota because more expensive items tend to be less cost-effective than cheaper ones, as a tradeoff for building into bigger items. So for example, if you get behind in gold in dota, it's possible to counteract your gold deficit by building cheaper items to give you a better immediate boost, at the cost of not having as many options lategame.
Joined: Oct 30, 2013 Posts: 16394 Location: Secret Lair
That is a large misrepresentation.
Spoiler
A B. F. Sword gives 50 AD for 1550 Gold.
A pickaxe gives you 25 AD for 875 Gold.
You save about 200 G for going an extra 5 - 10 minutes without the first 25 ad? In addition, we never stop at either item.
The B. F. Sword MUST be built into a 3500 G or 3800 G item (or you are doing it wrong).
The Pickaxe can build into a very very good 1900 G item (with a decent enough build path further into another 3300 G total item), a very good 2300 G item, a decent 2850 G item, a good 2200 G item, a good 3200 G item, the 3800 G item that B. F. Sword builds into, and a really really good 3300 G item.
The B. F. Sword builds into a pure Critical Hit item or a pure life steal item. The Pickaxe builds into an MR item, a permaslow + health item, a kiting item, the same critical hit item, a mana + tons of bonus ad on a toggle item, and Last Whisper.
Yes, that 200 G saved is good. Except you never stop there, and B. F. Sword is a very niche item you see mainly on ADC's.
In addition, you've ignored my defensive items point. For 1050 G you already have an anti auto attack passive AND 45 armor. For 100 G less than the B. F. Sword, you get 25 less attack in exchange for 30 MR and an anti-magic shield. I can continue....
In conclusion: A) More expensive items are NOT more cost-effective in terms of build path. In fact, you are going to have to spend MORE G on average to get to the final item which is not definitively better than some of the other alternatives.
B) Defensive items, as stated, are more efficient and lend a lot less to snowballing.
edit: after typing that, I think this is getting off topic enough that we should move threads
I don't see how defensive items are worse for snowballing. Tank items may not increase your dps, will let you dive further and escape alive, effectively giving you more time to do your damage.
As for the whole "secondary objectives over kills" thing, that works in dota too, it's known as "rat dota".
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I don't see how defensive items are worse for snowballing. Tank items may not increase your dps, will let you dive further and escape alive, effectively giving you more time to do your damage.
As for the whole "secondary objectives over kills" thing, that works in dota too, it's known as "rat dota".
Defensive stats give large diminishing returns after the first one in any category.
And no, "rat dota" is not the same. That's split pushing, and much harder for a team that is behind. There's a reason I said the giant neutral minion was the closest you are going to get.
Defensive stats give diminishing returns, but so do offensive stats, tanky heroes do nothing, but glass cannons also do nothing if they get bursted down. Ideally you want a mix of both.
If you think split pushing doesn't work when you're behind, try watching some of Alliance's games. Split pushing from behind won them 1 million dollars.
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Joined: Oct 30, 2013 Posts: 16394 Location: Secret Lair
I didn't say it couldn't work when you are behind. I said it's much harder because the tower acts like another hero. This is part of the whole, "your enemy has to start making mistakes" thing.
Offensive stats in LOL do not give diminishing returns in the same way that defensive ones do. It's not like DOTA in this way (which is a point in DOTA's favor). In fact, that's basically the lol meta right now. Pudge cannonballs into the front lines while squishy glass cannon people in back rain hell upon your opponents. OR stupidly snowballed champ can just glasscannon the **** out of 3 people in a 3 v 1 anyways. The main difference is that how many offensive items you have does nothing to affect how useful your next offensive item will be, while how many defensive items you have directly reduces the effectiveness of the next one you build.
Joined: Oct 30, 2013 Posts: 16394 Location: Secret Lair
^^ It stacks multiplicatively.
Champions in DOTA inherently deal more damage than Champs in LOL. There are balance differences that revolve around this but champions in DOTA are inherently more dangerous at most stages in the game than champions in LOL. A side effect of this is that defensive items are MUCH more important in DOTA if we are talking about "glass cannons". A second side effect of this is that it actually counteracts snowballing a bit in DOTA.
Although if we want to really start discussing thigns I don't like about DOTA and snowball mechanics, I do not like unreliable gold.
lifestealer took me 8 attempts, and he was the last one I completed. I don't really enjoy playing lifestealer though so it's not like I was actively trying to get a win with him
He just isn't a very good hero. He has low armor, low strength gain, and no way to kill people unless he can get in range to use his super short range slow.
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