I believe so.

So I have to say that I've enjoyed the deck. Not sure what it is, but I'm just not the biggest fan of Aura Gnarlid. The card does exactly what it's suppose to do but I find that I play to my other outs and sit with it in hand a lot of games (probably my own stigma). Having said that, a few wolves and Gnarlid with some lord/anthem effects is a lot of beat down (even if they can block, usually it's only one or two creatures and the rest just swing on in).

I dumped Mischief and Mayhem and tossed in Elder of Laurels which was working fine. I generally don't like telegraphing my pumps (although I'm fine with Hunter's Prowess for it's trample and draw) even though the Mischief pump typically equates to unblockable damage. Laurel just has threat of activation if they can block (or can make unblockables pre-combat like Mischief) and can continue to activate multiple times (in the same turn or over a course of a game). Plus it's just another target they have to remove making your Timberwatch Elf and Paragon of Eternal Wilds last longer. The down side is obviously a dry board where you're not getting much out of the activation but with 27 creatures, that wasn't usually too bad.

The one down side which you eluded to is the lack of interaction (similar to a lot of the elves and wolves themes). It's sometimes tough to just sit there and let them mess with your board while they continue to advance theirs. Even with the unblockable damage you can run into issues where you're not able to race (especially if they have any life gain). I think that's just something you have to accept when running a deck like this. After a handful of runs with a non-interactive deck like this I often have to run something like a RDW just to shake off the bitters (there's always a few loses where they just messed with you enough to boil the kettle so you need to go out and rip some quick wins).

elk

It shouldn't as it isn't combat damage.

That's what I figured.

I'm really starting to love fog in my mono green aggro deck. I've been using it in conjunction with primal bellow, beastmaster ascension, and chorus of might. And my wandering wolf will get through for sure if I pump him up with both primal bellow and chorus of might. I just need a semi-wide board combined with timberwatch elf.

Safe Passage works though

So I was out with my mono green deck as usual and I got hoofed . It got me thinking though if I should be trying to cram Craterhoof Behemoth into this list? The deck has a lot of trample and card draw but my board state is generally just a couple big creatures that I muscle through for wins. Having said that, you typically only need 2-3 other creatures around to have a good hoofing. Having said that, it'll just make some really big dudes even bigger but ...having said that...hoof typically wins the turn it's played. So I'm just not sure if it's worth it or not. If I were to test it out, where do you folks think I should make the cut to fit it in?

It was also suggested that the interaction of Masked Admirers and Garruk's Packleader could have some nice card advantage. Considering the amount of mana this deck generates, I wonder if it would be worth it (recursion/recast wouldn't be too much trouble). I use to carry a couple Genesis Hydra too and have been wondering about returning them to the mix (I replaced them with the Terra Stomper specifically for control match ups and CMC to P/T ratio. It's also extremely important that it includes trample which is an absolute win condition for the deck. I realize I still get the additional card with Hydra even if it's interrupted but I don't know what I'm getting and it may not have the same impact as when a Stomper hits the board. It's just that Hydra is 2 cards for 7-9 mana; which is fantastic, even if it doesn't beat a token).

So short form - Thoughts on:

Craterhoof Behemoth
Masked Admirers (hmmm I wonder what Hakeem will say )
Genesis Hydra

Should I cram any/all of them in here and where would you make the cut?


elk

I said it once.. I'll say it again.

Enlarge

Turn 5 Arbor Colossus
Turn 6 Land, Primal Bellow, Enlarge

That's 19 trampling damage right there.

That spell doesn't get enough credit for its effect on the game.. its absolutely crushing on the unblockable dudes. You don't have to worry about Craterhoof bc your opponent will never see 8 mana.

I don't like Admirers too much but in mono-green you don't have a ton of options. I certainly like it a lot better than Nylea's Disciple.

I also don't like Wayfinder too much here, I tried him in Naya where I had no graveyard interaction and topdecking it is terrible.

What about:

-4 Satyr Wayfinder
-1 Nylea's Disciple
-1 Kozilek

+1 Forest
+1 Prey Upon
+2 Masked Admirers
+1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+1 Genesis Hydra

Hydra digs deep for Craterhoof and can be cast early in a pinch so I like it better than Kozilek in beatdown decks.

It raises the curve a nice bit but 25 land plus 4 Cultivate and the Disciple/Wurm lifegain, it seems like it would work.

So your response to Craterhoof, Admirer and Hydra is Enlarge? Interesting....

Enlarge is fine but it just doesn't compare to Primal Bellow which is insane value in mono green. With the trample already in the deck, even the pump isn't entirely necessary (although it does typically win the game the turn it's played. That and on the back of Hunter's Prowess, it does draw your whole deck). Now I guess Craterhoof is both pump and trample (and generally wins the turn it's played) so it's why I questioned it but it may be just win more here. Hence why I was looking to hear folks' thoughts/feedback.

elk

I'm not the biggest fan of Satyr here but it's early chump, it maintains tempo and why the deck can operate at 24 lands with such a high curve (there is a ramp/mana based theme here so Satyr does fit into that shell). Late game it's horrid though and if you refer to earlier posts when I was discussing the deck, I spent a lot of time messing with the Satyr quantity. The deck does need early plays (which is why it ultimately became a 4 of) to be able to get to a late game so there has to be a trade on that end of the curve. Regarding dumping into the grave......see Kozilek.

Kozilek is generally not a played card. It's basically all grave recycle. The deck has some good draw but is awesome with Hunter's Prowess. If you add a Primal Bellow on to it, you draw your whole deck. In fact it is surprisingly easy to deck yourself and why he made it into the 60 (but this method makes hand fixing a breeze and almost ensures you'll win the game from there). It's also why I went from 4 Prey Upon to 3 since I felt I could always draw into them (although it is a great card here and wouldn't mind having the 4th).

Nylea's Disciple and the early chump just makes this deck get to its game plan so I can see Admirer fitting in to help with that (meaning I don't mind cutting away a Disciple for a replacement that will also fit the same role). Having said that, the crazy life gain in this pile does tend to take the game far out of reach to the point where racing is rarely a concern (or having any concerns about finding an answer/win card).

Like I mentioned, the deck originally had Hydra in it and it was always fine then (although I did like the change over to Terra Stomper better) so I'd like to get it back in. I think you're on the right track looking to put 1 back in to dig deep and Craterhoof would make a great target.

If you're willing to spin the deck in it's original form to get a feel for it, I'd appreciate it (it's fine if you don't want to run the fountains ) and then let me know what you think you'd be ok with losing (if the deck could consistently get to ramp and past the early stages of a game, I'd love to cut all the Satyr too but I just don't know if that's a 'consistent' choice).

I'm on board with a +1 Hydra, +1 Hoof, +2 Admirer and it would be great to cut all the Satyr to fit it in. Ultimately though I can see -1 (maybe -2?) Disciple if we can't give away all the early curve plays (and more importantly chump). Cutting the Satyr would also require adding one or even two more forests too.



elk

I will jump on board and do some testing with your ramp build elk. Been running green aggro for fun yesterday so lets get some testing into the beefcakes route.

I am thinking masked admirers would be a welcome addition as I always felt the draw options in mono green to be generally bad and he doe give ANOTHER option for a little more. (albeit still pretty bad.)

Did you ever consider the 3 cost wall as an early defender to help get to the late game? I know in past builds before expansions it was a lot of help in some ramp decks I ran.

The point I'm trying to make is that you don't need Craterhoof if you run Enlarge bc your opponent will already be dead. The removal aspect of the card is always welcome in mono green too.

I really feel that Enlarge changes games. It puts the opponent on their heels.. or in the grave.

-4 Wayfinders

+2 Enlarge
+1 Vengevine
+1 Craterhoof

Also.. no lord effects? Nylea's Disciple over Paragon/Hall?

This may be the first time I've ever disagreed with you.. but.. that is just lunacy. After blue.. green has the best draw in the game. Its so weird for that to be the case too.. but its true. You could make an argument that green has even better draw than blue bc you draw more cards for less mana.

The biggest issue with a lot of the draw is that most of it is conditional.

Elvish Visionary and Masked Admirers are IMO some of the best draw options has. They represent unconditional draw with a creature attached (which brings about the potential to be reused somehow by either bounce or flicker or recursion or whatever). Pelakka Wurm could be included here as well, but the draw on that is generally more of a defense against removal than something you actively want to have happening.

Hunter's Prowess is nice because it often represents a lot of cards for a relatively small amount of mana. It still requires a creature to cast it on though, one which has to be able to cause damage to do get the draw (trample certainly helps), and is done at sorcery speed so can potentially be blown out by removal.

Garruk's Packleader is equally conditional. Needing to stick on the table, and then a supply of creatures with power 3 or higher to trigger it.

I don't think I have ever played Triumph of Ferocity, which is again pretty conditional. Don't think I have ever included it in one of my decks, and I don't think I ever would. Bleck lol.

has some decent draw options. Most of them are really situational and/or need to be built around though, which I am not a huge fan of.

I still think Craterhoof maybe win more with the exception of having Genesis Hydra being able to dig it out. Now Craterhoof does have the upside of giving all the creatures on board a pump and trample whereas Bellow and Enlarge are single target (and they do feel awful when someone removes your pumped target). Still, the deck has trample as it's win condition and most of the bodies in the deck carry enough weight that pump is more 'win this turn' which ultimately may not be needed. I'm not sure Enlarge is the right fit for this deck but I also don't think hoof is either (it's more that I got 'hoofed' and wanted to cram it into my fatty deck)



Lord effects are best for small wide armies. This deck has a lot of fat to it so pumping most of the deck by +1 isn't going to be relative much of the time. This does however make me want to try and brew a 'weenie' green deck though.

elk

You guys underestimate Triumph of Ferocity. How hard is it in green colors to have the most powerful creature on the field, or tied for the most power? Not hard at all. Prey Upon requires pretty much the same set of circumstances to be effective. Just look at the other colors and compare the power levels at 4 mana and above.. green has the highest power option at almost every step.

4 mana: Vengevine vs the world: He is only surpassed by Marauding Malborn.. which nobody runs. Ogre Jailbreaker ties him.. and I think that's it. 4 power @ 4 mana is rare in this game.

5 mana: Arbor Colossus > Everybody. Stomper cub ties everyone else but.. he's bad.

6 mana: Terra Stomper > Everyone else.. Soul of Ravnica ties everyone else.

7 mana: Pelakka Wurm > Everybody else

8 mana: There's nothing here for green.. Griselbrand and Skeletal Wurm are still trying to play catch up.

The only two creatures that realistically throw a wrench in the Triumph of Ferocity plan are Wooly Thoctar (until T5) and Fusion Elemental (until T6).

It's really a lot easier to meet those conditions than ya'll think.

Ya know what's better than 8/8 Terra Stomper? 9/9 Terra Stomper .

If not the Paragons.. a singleton Hall of Triumph is certainly worth a slot.

Please.. just try the Enlarges for a few matches. Give them a chance before you simply write them off due to theorycrafting. In my experience.. they devastate opponents. Obviously you gotta play around the 2 for 1 but you do with Prey Upon, Hunter's Prowess, Primal Bellow, etc.

what's Rare Mythic Rare in duels is below the curve in paper, in standard we call 4/3's for 4 limited filler, or a solid Pauper common option. Lol

I've been an advocate for Triumph of ferocity but hate putting a "doesn't affect the battlefield card" in my deck. yet feel like i've lost when one sticks against me when i'm playing control, Forces me to use spells on my own turn. and change your whole game plan up

When are you playing this Triumph of Ferocity and how many copies do you propose? It's horrible on T3 and after that you'd rather just be casting all of those lovely creatures you just listed off there. The only "good" time to play Triumph is when you have nothing else in your hand. It also makes the midrange deck's bad matchups against counterspells, bounce, and removal actively worse because it isn't a threat. Even against the aggro decks you'd just rather have another blocker.

Maybe one copy is playable somewhere. I don't think so, though.

The main issue I have with Triumph of Ferocity is when to play it.

T3 I want to ramp or draw more land
T4 is the best spot if you didn't ramp..
T5 I want to play Arbor Colossus or Enlarge
T6 Terra
T7 Wurm

There's just not a turn where I'm happy sticking it.. but when I have just sucked it up and put it down early.. it has paid off.

Also.. the other strategy that defeats Triumph is auras.. but Auras blow out mono green anyway. T2 Hero of Iroas into T3 Armored Ascension or spamming Nimbus Wings/Ordeal of Heliod on it is GG for mono green anyway. You'll never see turn 5-6 to be able to use Arbor Colossus's monstrosity ability.. which is pretty much your only out besides chumping 5 drops.