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POSValkir
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:16 am 
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Trying to clarify the rule...how does Mana Clash work here?

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Aaarrrgh
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:40 am 
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POSValkir wrote:
Trying to clarify the rule...how does Mana Clash work here?


Usually, any random effect ends up to the disadvantage of the person who caused it. So in most situations, it would just instantly kill you, as that is the outcome that is the most advantageous for the opponent.

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POSValkir
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:50 am 
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Ok. I wasn't sure if it was that, or if it kicked into the "arbitrarily large number of times" thing...

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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:29 pm 
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The "infinity" exception is there because someone complained about Frenetic Efreet + Chance Encounter not working as a win condition, when it would 100% of the time in a normal game of Magic. Honestly, I'm not sure anymore that it's worth the added complexity.

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masterofdoom
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:18 pm 
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Efreet/Encounter doesn't work anyway given you need SEVEN MANA

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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:28 pm 
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masterofdoom wrote:
Efreet/Encounter doesn't work anyway given you need SEVEN MANA

The original deck was submitted in an alt. format similar to WUBRG, but yeah, I might get rid of that exception next season. It's confusing to read and doesn't really add much to the game.

Mown, however, does add things to the game, such as good suggestions for symmetry checker features that I have now implemented. Now we can tell the difference between actual inconsistencies and unfinished scores! Huzzah!

Also, I wouldn't expect any extra activity to occur this week, since we still have two unfinished spreadsheets.

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POSValkir
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:36 pm 
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Took a look at 7v2 and I agree with Aaarrrgh.

Took a look at 5v12: Not to familiar with redirect rules...
Spoiler
Yeah, looks like Razor is right either way. Really if 5 leads with anything other than Vraska then 12 wins and if 5 plays Vraska before 12 plays Vraska then 5 wins

The rest of the matches are sym'd up.

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Hello World
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:04 pm 
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CommanderJim wrote:
The "infinity" exception is there because someone complained about Frenetic Efreet + Chance Encounter not working as a win condition, when it would 100% of the time in a normal game of Magic. Honestly, I'm not sure anymore that it's worth the added complexity.

Wouldn't it also be relevant if someone plans to draw versus a deck that runs elixir of immortality by having it always draw his cards in the least useful way?


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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:09 pm 
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Hello World wrote:
CommanderJim wrote:
The "infinity" exception is there because someone complained about Frenetic Efreet + Chance Encounter not working as a win condition, when it would 100% of the time in a normal game of Magic. Honestly, I'm not sure anymore that it's worth the added complexity.

Wouldn't it also be relevant if someone plans to draw versus a deck that runs elixir of immortality by having it always draw his cards in the least useful way?

Yeah, I guess technically if an Elixir of Immortality deck could gain infinite life (against a deck trying to kill it with life loss), it should statistically be able to get its deck in whatever order it wants eventually. A lot of people wouldn't even think of that application of the exception, though, so that's another reason to get rid of it.

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POSValkir
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:41 pm 
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In Moroii 4v6: Agree 3-3.
Spoiler

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Rush_Clasic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:16 pm 
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CommanderJim wrote:
The "infinity" exception is there because someone complained about Frenetic Efreet + Chance Encounter not working as a win condition, when it would 100% of the time in a normal game of Magic. Honestly, I'm not sure anymore that it's worth the added complexity.

Why wouldn't this work under the old rules, which were just "If your deck would create a random effect, the opponent chooses how that effect resolves"...?

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masterofdoom
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:34 pm 
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They could have you lose the flip every time, putting no counters on Encounter

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Rush_Clasic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:44 pm 
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No, I mean that it works within the rules. That win condition is just banned by the same rules. There's no need to address that corner case.

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razorborne
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:31 pm 
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Rush_Clasic wrote:
No, I mean that it works within the rules. That win condition is just banned by the same rules. There's no need to address that corner case.

no one said it didn't work. the point wasn't to address a rules incongruity, it was to address a scenario where the rules behaved weirdly. Efreet-Encounter is not actually a random event, at least not to many, many degrees of accuracy. although technically you have to do all the activations beforehand, so there is always a non-zero chance that they all fail, but I can activate it so many times that the world's most powerful supercomputers couldn't tell the difference between my odds of success and 100%. thus it's weird that I can fail.

not saying it's worth the exception, but no one ever claimed that it didn't technically work, so arguing that it does technically work is meaningless.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

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Rush_Clasic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:50 pm 
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Fair point. I suppose I didn't realize what the actual problem was. In that case, though, it's just like any other infinite combo.

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mjack33
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:47 pm 
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So if I understood this right, we were supposed to take a week off to finalize the scores and then let people leisurely ban what they wanted?

It's Saturday night and:

- Round 3 still hasn't been finalized. Some matchups are still in dispute.
- Round 4 hasn't even been filled out to the point where we only have some thing in dispute.


Is the next round going to be able to start on time?


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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:14 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Is the next round going to be able to start on time?

As long as some people make an effort sometime in the next few days, we should be okay. Technically the deadline for "on-time" is Friday, so we've got some time left.

Edit: Going through some WUBRG inconsistencies now.

2v7: I believe Aaarrrgh's note here is correct. 2-2
2v15: This was just my mistake not realizing that Skylasher can't block Blazing Specter without dying. 2-2
5v12: razor's note here makes sense. 2-2

And with that, the WUBRG spreadsheet looks done! I'll leave another day for people to propose changes, and then I'll update the scores.

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thatmarkguy
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:16 am 
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It looks like razor attacked all the symmetry disputes, and I agree with all of them except 10v20, which as noted above, 20 can win by just playing Auriok Salvagers and attacking with that 10 times. If 10 plays a Titan to stop then, then Emrakul lands and annihilates 10's board to win. So it's 6-0 for 20.

4v20 is still marked 6-0 but I've got it 3-3. 20 on the play, recycled Emrakul gets cast a second time before Necrotic Sliver is recycled redrawn replayed and repopped, and there's never time/mana to Meddle (the white mana is tied up in casting Necrotic to avert T2 death)

2v12 is still marked 0-6 but should be 2-2 per Razor's note
3v13 is mildly disputed, I can't figure it out.
3v14 is mildly disputed, I can't figure it out.
4v10 is now agreed to be 3-3
4v13 seems to be agreed 4-1
5v13 brain melted
6v13 brain even more melted (I think it's 3-3, but it's after midnight on a Saturday...)

Nah, I can't work all these out. But those first three really should be corrected. Everything else I think can hold presently noted scores unless someone mounts a compelling case to overrule.


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razorborne
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:41 am 
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thatmarkguy wrote:
It looks like razor attacked all the symmetry disputes, and I agree with all of them except 10v20, which as noted above, 20 can win by just playing Auriok Salvagers and attacking with that 10 times. If 10 plays a Titan to stop then, then Emrakul lands and annihilates 10's board to win. So it's 6-0 for 20.

yeah, as mentioned I got distracted by the Titans and Eldrazis and forgot about the 2/4.

:duel:

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GrifterMage wrote:
I tend to agree with Razor.

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Aaarrrgh
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:49 am 
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So, I've filled out rows 7 and 8 to the best of my ability, I'll let someone else do the rest.

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