Joined: Oct 17, 2013 Posts: 3486
Preferred Pronoun Set: He
Ugh, I'm pretty sure the Path version of the deck is just better than mine. Sure, it doesn't beat Energy Field, but it also doesn't lose to random utility lands...
I did some math and it looked to be in my favor. I don't have it saved, but let me try to reproduce it:
Spoiler
Me - You 20 - 20 Opponent plays Gargardon 15 - 16 I play Frog and swing for 4, you block 11 - 15 You attack for 4 06 - 08 Attack for 7 and remove dude 06 - 08 02 - 01 Attack for 7
I think I might have counted a lifeloss from the dead Phantasm, so I guess it should be 3-3 (although that is just assumption on my part... I die in 4 turns and kill in 3) Edit: It might also be better to not block, which I didn't check.
Completely forgot Suspend gives the creature haste....d'oh. So it comes down to the extra card against the Gargadon decks: I think you guys filled in the 6 too quickly. I can anticipate on the coming Gargadon if I play the Maze when you have 2 counters left.
2 and 4: Crack the Earth
Spoiler
Option 1: Garg sacs tokens at 2 counters. Does not sac a token to Crack the Earth. Play everything with Garg at 2 counters. Garg sacs 2 tokens to come into play. Lose 4 life. play Crack (Phantasm dies with the land). Attack with everything. 3 tokens come through. (17-16) Lose 1 life. (16-16) Lose 4 life. Attack with all. 3 come through (13-12) Lose 1 life (12-12) Lose 4 life. Attack with all. 3 come through (9-8) Lose 1 life (8-8). Lose 4 life. Attack with all. 3 come through (5-4) Lose 1 life (4-4). Lose 4 life. Phantasm wins.
Option 2: Garg sacs tokens at 2 counters. DOES sac a token to Crack the Earth. Play everything with Garg at 2 counters. Garg sacs 2 tokens to come into play. Lose 4 life. play Crack (Phantasm dies with a token). Attack with everything. 2 tokens come through. (18-16) Lose 1 life. (17-16) Lose 3 life. Attack with all. 2 come through (15-13) Lose 1 life (14-13) Lose 3 life. Attack with all. 2 come through (12-10) Lose 1 life (11-10). etc. Phantasm wins.
Option 3: Garg does not sac token at 1 counter. Does not sac token to crack the earth Play everything with Garg at 2 counters. Lose 5 life Garg at 1, play Crack (Phantasm dies with the land). Attack with everything. 4 come through. (16-15) Lose 1 life. (15-15) Lose 5 life. Garg comes in. Attack with all. 5 come through (10-10) Lose 1 life (9-10) Lose 6 life. Attack with all. 5 come through (4-4) Lose 1 life. Lose 6 life. Phantasm wins.
Option 4: Garg DOES sac token at 1 counter. Does not sac token to crack the earth Play everything with Garg at 2 counters. Lose 5 life Garg at 1, play Crack (Phantasm dies with the land). Attack with everything. 4 come through. Sac 1 for Garg (16-15) Lose 1 life. (15-15) Lose 5 life. Attack with all. 4 come through (11-10) Lose 1 life (10-10) Lose 5 life. Attack with all. 5 come through (5-5) Lose 1 life. (4-5) Lose 5 life. Phantasm wins.
Option 5: Garg does not sac token at 1 counter. DOES sac token to crack the earth Play everything with Garg at 2 counters. Lose 5 life Garg at 1, play Crack (Phantasm dies with a token). Attack with everything. 3 come through. (17-15) Lose 1 life. (16-15) Lose 4 life. Garg comes in. Attack with all. 4 come through (12-11) Lose 1 life (11-11) Lose 5 life. Attack with all. 4 come through (7-6) Lose 1 life. (6-6) Lose 5 life. Attack with all. 4 come through (2-1) Lose 1 life. (1-1) Lose 5 life. Phantasm wins.
Option 6: Garg DOES sac token at 1 counter. DOES sac token to crack the earth Play everything with Garg at 2 counters. Lose 5 life Garg at 1, play Crack (Phantasm dies with a token). Attack with everything. 3 come through. (17-15) Lose 1 life. (16-15) Lose 4 life. Garg comes in. Attack with all. 3 come through (12-11) Lose 1 life (11-11) Lose 4 life. Attack with all. 3 come through (8-7) Lose 1 life. (7-7) Lose 4 life. Attack with all. 3 come through (4-3) Lose 1 life. (3-3) Lose 5 life. Phantasm wins.
So Gargadon cannot get suspended.
And if Phantasm starts first: Play Maze + Phantasm. Lose 5 life, Crack kills Maze, attack with tokens (5 come through) (15-15) Lose 2 life, attack with Phantasm (13-11) Lose 5 life, attack with tokens (5 come through), suspend Garg. sac tokens. (8-6) Lose 2 life, attack with Phantasm (6-2) Suspend counter Lose 2 life, attack with Phantasm (4-0) Phantasm wins.
Suspending Garg first is bad because it gives me a full turn with both Phantasm and Maze, and thus makes me deal more damage.
So I got it as 6-0 for Phantasm.
But against 14: Path to Exile
Spoiler
Play Maze of Ith with Gargadon at 2 counters. Garg at 1 counter Lose 1 life (19-20). Garg comes into play, Maze of Ith stops it. Lose 1 life (18-20), play everything else. Lose 6 life, Path takes out Phantasm. Attack with all. 5 comes through. (13-14) Lose 1 life (12-14) Lose 6 life, attack with all. 5 comes through (8 - 8) Lose 1 life (7 - 8) Lose 6 life, attack with all. 5 comes through (3 - 2) Lose 1 life (2-2) Lose 6 life. Phantasm wins.
So the correct play for Garg is to not suspend Garg. But in that case: Play Maze + Phantasm. Lose 5 life, kill Phantasm, attack with tokens (4 come through) (16-15) Lose 1 life (15-15) Lose 5 life, attack with tokens (4 come through), suspend Garg. sac tokens. (11-10) Lose 1 life Suspend counter Lose 1 life Suspend counter By now Phantasm is behind in life and dies by life loss.
So the correct play for Phantasm is not to start either. 2-2
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Moderator of the PbP-area. Creating and playing forum games and Mafia since 2004.
Joined: Oct 17, 2013 Posts: 3486
Preferred Pronoun Set: He
You don't even need that big post, you just straight outrace. If I cast Crack, you sac the Maze and beat me down in 5 turns. This is true on the play or the draw.
Desert does nothing against me, partly because feeder eats fiend with its trigger on the stack, but also because carrion feeder sacs itself and desert ends up killing you.
You're right. Besides, Quicksand was probably better anyway.
Can someone please do the math on 1vsPhantasm? I can't figure it out right now.
Depends on which Phantasm. After Unlife is down, it takes Phantasm 3 swings to kill. (3) Before then, assuming Phantasm doesn't block, it deals 11 after every turn loop: 1 from Unlife, 1 from Chancellor token, 5 from Goblin tokens, and 4 from Phantasm. (2) So, the quickest Phantasm can kill (without considering its other card) is turn 6. Unlife can kill in 4 swings with its 6 power of tokens. So it kills a turn faster. Blocking all-out doesn't help: you can deal 15 damage with the tokens across 5 blocks, during which time Phantasm eats its owner alive. So let's look at a mixture. Phantasm doesn't really need to attack until you've lost all your life. You don't have to play Unlife until it matters, so we'll assume you don't.
Them: Phantasm You: (14/20) attack with 6 tokens, they block one (14/15) Them: (14/14) You: (9/14) attack with 5 tokens, they block one (9/10) Them: (9/9) You: (5/9) Play Unlife, attack with 4 tokens, they block one (5/6) Them: (5/5) You: (1/5) attack with 3 tokens, they block one (1/3) Them: (1/2) attack with Phantasm (-3/2) You: attack with 2 tokens and win.
I see no way for Phantasm alone to beat you. But it'll change depending on which Phantasm deck you look at. Which sort of makes what I just did pointless. Oh well.
16v21: Nifty on the play, but pretty awful on the draw. I've done the math on Orchard as a kill condition and in case anyone wants to know how it works: you activate Orchard the first four times on your own turn, the fifth on your opponent's turn, and the sixth on your own again, which goes exactly 20. (6-0)
But even on the play that ideal fragile line only barely beats an absolute goldfish (1-0!), doesn't it? Like Hello says, I don't see how Arcane Denial helps at all because the only turn it can afford to not tap the Orchard on-own-turn is turn 4, so Arcane isn't in place to be able to counter first-three-opponent-turn casting threats.
And on the draw ... can it even beat a goldfish?
Ya, it's only useful against a goldfish. Also, on the draw and on the play are the same against a goldfish for almost everything except Chancellor of the Forge.
[url=http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?p=265694#p265694]Hello World wrote:
Also if someone can find the results of my deck versus 19(Ajani) I'd be grateful.
Ajani is deck 18. Did you mean 18? Because that's a pretty simple 3-3.
Yeah,that one. serenechaos hitting himself for 6 each time she wants to helix until he or she ultimates, and feeder stopping the first three life agains the -3 vs. a creature make it difficult to calculate for me.
[url=http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?p=265694#p265694]Hello World wrote:
Also if someone can find the results of my deck versus 19(Ajani) I'd be grateful.
Ajani is deck 18. Did you mean 18? Because that's a pretty simple 3-3.
Yeah,that one. serenechaos hitting himself for 6 each time she wants to helix until he or she ultimates, and feeder stopping the first three life against the -3 vs. a creature make it difficult to calculate for me.
Helix is only a -2, and Feeder only stops the first because Ajani targets the feeder. Basically, Ajani being able to not actually lose life post ult means it can barely edge you out. Although Mountain was a terrible, terrible choice for this deck.
[url=http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?p=265694#p265694]Hello World wrote:
Also if someone can find the results of my deck versus 19(Ajani) I'd be grateful.
Ajani is deck 18. Did you mean 18? Because that's a pretty simple 3-3.
Yeah,that one. serenechaos hitting himself for 6 each time she wants to helix until he or she ultimates, and feeder stopping the first three life agains the -3 vs. a creature make it difficult to calculate for me.
I probably just oversimplified it and forgot to calculate something important.
t0: A puts token down. at1:take 1, attack (M19, A19) mt1: pass at2: take 1 attack (M18, A18) mt2: pass at3: take 1, attack (M17, A17) mt3: pass at4: take 1, attack (M16, A16) mt4: pass at5: take 1, attack (M15, A15) mt5: pass at6: take 1, attack (M14, A14) mt6: play swamp at7: take 1, attack (M13, A13) mt7: take 1, play tabbie, play shadow (M12, A13) at8: pass mt8: take 3, attack (M9, A9) at9: pass mt9: take 3, attack (M6, A2) at10: play lotus, play Unlife mt10, take 3, attack (M3, A0) at11: take 1 (M3, A-1) I lose
so
t0: A puts token down. at1:take 1, attack (M19, A19) mt1: pass at2: take 1 attack (M18, A18) mt2: pass at3: take 1, attack (M17, A17) mt3: pass at4: take 1, attack (M16, A16) mt4: pass at5: take 1, attack (M15, A15) mt5: pass at6: take 1, attack (M14, A14) mt6: pass at7: take 1, attack (M13, A13) mt7: pass at8: take 1, attack (M12, A12) mt8: play swamp, play shadow at9: take 1, attack (M11, A11) mt9: take 2, attack (M9, A7) at10: take 1, pass (M9, A6) mt10, take 2, attack, a block (M7, A6) at11: play lotus, play unlife (M7, A6) mt11: take 2, attack (M5, A0) at12: take 1 (M5, A1p) mt12: take 2, attack (M3,A11p) I win
so
A does not play token mt1: play swamp skip ahead mt9: play shadow (M12, A20) mt10: take 2, attack (M10, A17) mt11: take 2, attack (M8, A12) mt12: take 2, attack (M6, A5) at12: play unlife (M6, A5) mt13: take 2, attack (M4, A0) at13: take 1 (M4, A1p) mt13: take 2, attack (M2, A12p) I win
6-0
v2:
Spoiler
If I wait till Suspend ends, they play Paradise the turn before Garg comes down, get two attacks leaving me at 1 and no kill option. If I play swamp early, they Crack. So… mt1: play Tabbie ct1: Suspend mt9: play swamp, play shadow (m12, c20) ct10: remove counter 9. mt8: take 3, attack (m9, c16) ct11: remove counter ten, attack for win
0-6
v3:
Spoiler
I can’t get rid of field, they win
0-6
v4: 0-6 v5:
Spoiler
Maze stops shadow, not doing the math till I need to.
0-6
v6:
Spoiler
First time I’ve ever liked the change to that wording…
0-6
v7:
Spoiler
k plays nothing until I play Shadow. Can’t play Shadow till at 7 life. That means I can;t afford Tabbie. mt1: play swamp. mt14: Play Shadow (M7, C20) ct14: Play Varchild mt15: take 2, attack (M5, C12) ct15: take 1, give token (M5, C11) mt16: take 3, attack, c blocks (M2, C11) ct15: pass I lose
Therefore, I never play anything. If they play Var, I play Tabbie and Var dies, then I win with Shadow
2-2
v8:
Spoiler
If L plays nothing, I win. Lt1: Orchard, Agent (M20, L20) Mt1: Take 4, L sacs Agent, attack (M16, L16) Lt2: Take 1 (M16, L15) Mt2: Take 4, play swamp and Shadow, attack (M12, L11) Lt3: Take 1, (M12, L10) Mt3: Take 6, attack for the win
Not sure if Lily has an opportunity to give a summon sick token that still pings, but even so, I can win next turn.
6-0
v9:
Spoiler
Either way I lose. On the draw its a no brainer, on the play, they play Wasteland on the turn they play Phantasm and I still lose.
0-6
v10: yep v11:
Spoiler
plays nothing, I win, plays Toad, Iwin. Otherwise, they council my shadow and I lose.
2-2
v13:
Spoiler
I am forced to discard before I can play
0-6
v14: See other Gargs.
v15:
Spoiler
On the play: mt1: Play tabbie rt1: pass mt9: Play Shadow (M12, R20) rt9: Play Undie, play Affliction (M12, R20) mt10: Take 6, attack (M6, R13)
Yeah, like I thought, I can’t even play Shadow, and If Razor plays Shadow, I put down Tabbie then the same thing happens.
0-6
v16: Yep
v17: Wasteland for the win.
v18: Lifegain for the win
v19: Yep
v20: Ugh…
Spoiler
tt1: Orchard, Tap, Lotus, Elixir, Sac (M20, T25) mt1: Take 1, attack (M19, T24) tt2: take 1, Draw Lotus, pass (M19, T23) mt2: Take 1, attack (M18, T22) tt3: take 1, lotus combo (M18, T27) mt3: take 1, attack (M17, T26) tt4: take 1, draw lotus (M17, T25) mt4: take 1, attack (M16, T24) tt5: take 1, lotus combo (M16, T29) mt5: take 1, attack (M15, T28) tt6: take 1, draw lotus (M15, T27) mt6: take 1, attack (M14, T26) tt7: take 1, lotus combo (M14, T31) mt7: take 1, attack (M13, T30) tt8: take 1, draw lotus (M13, T29) mt8: take 1, play swamp, play shadow (M12, T28) tt9: take 1, lotus combo (M12, T33) mt9: take 3, attack (M9, T28) tt10: take 1, draw lotus (M9, T27) mt10: take 3, attack (M6, T19) tt11: take 1, lotus combo (M6, T24) mt11: take 3, attack (M3, T13) tt12: take 1, draw lotus (M3, T12) I lose
0-6
v21:
Spoiler
I don’t think this deck can win against blank three cards: zt1: You play Orchard and add mana. Both@20 mt1: take 1, attack Z:19, M:19 zt2: take 1 Z:18, M:19 mt2: take 1 attack Z:18, M18 zt3: take 1 Z:17, M18 etc...until they die on their upkeep.
On the other hand...they can counter shadow and then I would lose the race...sooooo
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