I played five games and actually got the single spore burst twice, both games I had Ogre Battledriver and young Pyromancer on the board and it was a very nice drop in both games. The first game I only had two in the domain but I had doubling season and the before mentioned cards so I got six 3/1's ready to swing for a nasty hit, of the six four from spore burst two from the pyromancer. On the second game getting the card I did have my max domain for the deck of three so I got the three tokens from spore burst and the pyromancer gave me a fourth. I can see it being lackluster if I am just casting it and i have no support but my early testing with it in is good.

I do like the idea Sheoldred but my deck is fairly lean on actual creatures but it is a pretty interesting idea Sheoldred is certainly a first few cards in if I change things.

Hi Guys, wanted to try to use the deck builder and make an effort at an Elves theme:



The thinking behind this was that Timberwatch is a powerful card but he will always get targeted by removal so I wanted to have a couple of ways to either save him or get him back if he gets killed. I also wanted a burn spell rather than green combat tricks since Timber already does that so have tried to incorporate resounding thunder as it is good in early and late game situations. This also allowed me to include 10 gates to give the life gain elves a chance to proc which can be handy.

The rest is weenie elf battle boost theme with the chance of a late game hoof if things get stuck. I have also included 2 fogs for this reason in case I don't want to chump block big creatures so I can save them for the overrun.

Thoughts? Maybe switch some cards for ground assaults?

Edit: after playing a bit more I think this would be better without the black cards as they are not helping often enough.

Hello everyone, I just wanted to post a new deck I have just created and will be testing out. The point is just to counter the opponents ability to use counter spells effectively. The deck uses the hydra to sneak out monsters and keeps its early game going with recurring bloodghast and having young wolf take two hits to die early. The other cards that slip past counter spells are banefire for + 5 mana, cycled resounding thunder, and terra stomper. I also use a full blast suffer the past during my end step when blue players tap out to draw. You can sneak a lot of damage in through spells alone but the deck does have a weak early game. I am thinking of dropping both masked admirers for 2 more young wolfs, but drawing cards is also a problem.

I have since taken out 3 x suffer for 3 x shock I will let you guys know how it goes.

A deck that plays Cultivates and Ingots wants 5 drops to capitalize on the ramp. The 5-drop should be proactive to further the board advantage early.
Mycoloth doesn't have enough food in this type of deck, so that doesn't leave many options. It was either Packleader or Nessian Asp.

Packleader is better in the control matchups, so that choice was made.



My version has enough late game with the Packleaders, so I would rather shore up the aggro matchup than throw in more grindy lategame cards.
15 creatures that enable a Packleader are plenty and a 4/4 survives Anger, which is the Bolt-test of the format.
I did consider Nylea's Disciple for the aggro matchups, but early on the devotion isn't high enough to really make a huge difference and late you have Pelakka Wurm.

Sheoldred really doesn't need any help to be good. The appeal of playing her in this deck is not to abuse her with the graveyard, but rather to cast her earlier than the opponent.
I agree that if you play Wayfinders the Treasured Finds become better, but I don't want either of them.



I welcome any and all feedback, but if it's not constructive I can't really do much with it.

The xbox metagame is different than the one in Steam from watching Hakeem's videos, so a deck can only truly be 'optimized' for the environment it's in.
If the environment is different, the optimal deck changes. You see this in paper Magic, where the first weeks of a new format there are tons of different decks.
After a while the metagame settles and you can start building decks to try and beat the popular decks.

We can't really do the same for Magic 2015, as there are no daily tournament results. The metagame won't settle as easily, as there is less shared information.
People also care less, as there are no real prizes on the line. This means pretty much every deck won't be 'optimized'.

You can optimize a deck to execute its gameplan as effectively as possible, which is what people are doing on these forums.
If my list is different from yours it doesn't necessarily mean it's unoptimized, it could just mean that the intended gameplan is different.

Plus nobody has hard data that can 100% confirm that adding card A over card B is better, we're just trying to use common sense, personal (read subjective) experience and basic math to determine that.

Which leads me back to the video series. I think I already mentioned this, but it's not intended to determine the absolute best deck in the game.
It is meant to entertain people and show off interesting decks with unique gameplans battling to the death.

Hope this cleared some things up

I understand that, but you end up asking for feedback then dismissing most of it, which makes me wonder why you don't just post the videos fully formed instead of trailing them and making them a psudeo-community thing when they're more a personal project tailored to personal tastes and are not really taking a lot of input from NGA.

I think calling the series "Top 16" is where my bugbear is I suppose. There's a large disconnect between that title and the content IMO. If you're going to call it Top 16, then it really should be the Top 16 decks, and these are not. Otherwise there's a failure of expectation.

And I disagree D15 hasn't got a settled metagame. People predicted a handful of archetypes would be dominant even before release and they've been correct since day 1. You've got some of the best players in the game trying to give you advice and you're dismissing it out of hand by claiming optimization is a matter of opinion that cannot be proven, which is simply false.

Their opinions on card choices in your decks are objectively superior in a lot of cases and you are choosing to not take it on board. It's your choice of course, but if you advertise on the forums and post decks in the sub forum then you must expect critique and commentary, and this is mine.

If you look back at my threads you will see that a lot has changed thanks to feedback.
That doesn't mean I will change every deck according to everyone's opinion, as that would just be a mess.
We are still discussing decks in the meantime, so it's not like I'm going off topic.

If someone proposes a change and has a good argument I will reflect upon it and make changes accordingly.
I'm entitled to my own opinion and I try to give proper reasons for changes I would rather not make, trying to be as objective as possible.

Top 16 just comes from "Top 8", which is used all over the place in Magic.

Never stated optimization is a matter of opinion, so you might want to reread what I said.

"Plus nobody has hard data that can 100% confirm that adding card A over card B is better, we're just trying to use common sense, personal (read subjective) experience and basic math to determine that."

That implies that to me. Especially with your views on the metagame being fluid and unproven, which I don't think anyone will agree with you on.

Some people's subjective opinions are pretty much close to being objectively superior when it comes to tailoring decks due to their skill in the game. Not always, but often. Remember, you're posting in the sub-forum. The entire point of this place is to argue the merits of A over B, and some people are unarguably a lot better at that than others.

Also, I understand your reason for calling it Top 16 now, but I still find it (unintentionally) misleading.

If you're trying to imply something I will point you towards the win percentage thread you started

This poor Jund thread is getting derailed.

I am tired of reading negative **** about this series. It's his series and he can do with it what he wants. He asked for feedback, and he listened to it. He changed decks based on that feedback. But it's still his series, and if he wants to leave a deck exactly the way he built it, he can. Because in his opinion, it is optimized the way he wants it based on how he thinks it will perform in the metagame. If I'm not mistaken, "Top 16" was the title of this same series in Duels 2014. He already stated that it is not necessarily the top 16 decks in the game. Titling it "Top 16" is just being consistent on his channel.

Not being positive is not being negative. I'm actually just indifferent. But if you're posting in the sub-forum, then your decks are up for critique. That it's a personal project doesn't shield flawed builds from criticism.

I suppose the fact this has been trailed for about half a year now means it's understandable that I may be lacking in enthusiasm for it too. I mean seriously man - s*** or get off the pot! You're not painting the Sistine Chapel here.

Not to be a bashing thread but it isn't just stevo, I've noticed you have your own style LVD which is fine. But sometimes in a community forum it might get a little.. old over time, I don't know if thats the right wording but yeah

You kinda just post decks without comments / info, people inevitably comment on the deck, and you reply sorta saying why they're wrong or why their new card inclusions wouldn't work.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3884&start=80

Even advice over changing one or two cards in a deck is shot down pretty quick, I'm not sure you give the advice on these forums more than a grain of salts worth.

If you don't even try the occasional change, or better deck idea whatever, and you just say no without play testing, you fall out of the community vibe that's all.

So sometimes people might be left feeling that LVD posts decks to be seen and admired, not altered, like a museum or something. And since this isn't a museum, we might ask why.

The T16 tagged decks I just wanted to be able to link to from my own thread, so they are posted without context if you just see them in these threads.
Perhaps I should've just put them in my thread with the spoiler tag or something, but it's too late to change that now.

When I'm building a deck I consider every card available, so when someone asks me about a card or makes a suggestion I already have an answer at the ready.
Some cards I have more doubts on than others, so those I might rethink if someone points it out.

When I build a deck with a certain gameplan, I try to get inspiration from successful decks with a similar plan that have been played IRL.
That's why I didn't want to include high cmc cards in an Aura/Exalted deck for example, because I looked at what makes the Standard Heroic decks work.
They play cheap creatures that can be enchanted as soon as turn 2, and than they protect them with cheap spells.
You won't see any 4 cmc creatures or spells in that deck, because it's not what the deck wants.
Obviously you have to adjust for the cards that are available in Magic 2015, so it doesn't always translate perfectly.

I would love to be able to playtest every card and give you more detailed feedback on it, but there's a limited amount of time in a day.
That's why avoid getting into too many discussions in the first place and just have to do my own thing.

Interesting premise. Have you considered Wrecking Ogre to further emphasize the "uncounterable damage" idea? Worst case, you use him on an unblocked 1/1 for 7 extra damage for 5 mana. The guy you cast him on can be snagged, of course, but most players would have already used that on one of your beefier guys.

Speaking of ogres.. Stevo, have you made any alterations to the "Ogre & Under"-deck after the new cardpack? Made any room for "The Hoof"? That deck is easily one of my top 3 favourite decks on NGA. Love the contradicting glory of subtlety and brutality, lol.

Just something I threw together today, that I am going to screw around with here in about a half hour when I get on the game.

I don't expect it to be great overall, but I just wanted to slap something together that would make Young Pyromancer cry.

Here's my take on the classic Jund devour and "not minding things dying"-type deck, but with a slight focus on overrun/stampede-ish effects and K.O.s.



So the plan is to trade efficiently in the early/mid-game, and build up for a huge finisher with Chorus of Might or Le Hoof. It's been working pretty well, but I am missing some classic devour helpers like Krenko's Command. Undying Evil could be nice here, but I felt the creatures I really wanted to protect was Mycoloth and Kresh, which makes Undying Evil fizzle. It would be nice for the Thrinaxes or the Bombers, but that's pretty much it.

Though, I might have gone a bit overboard with the removal. But I feel Ground Assault is just too good to pass on in any RG deck, and I just love the flexibility ofAuger Spree. Which can double as a boost to a finisher like Chorus of Might, or a large Mycoloth or Kresh. Though, it's a bit unreliable as such, so I might go down to 2 copies and add a land and a Wrecking Ogre, to capitalize on the K.O.-theme. Ogre Battledriver is another great, awesome value card that I probably should include.

Edit1:
Ohh, and Beastmaster Ascension should probably / most definitely be in here, lol.. Can't believe I overlooked that..

Edit2:
Gonna try without the Bombers, and with the Rockslides instead. Really wanted Chorus here, but something tells me advancing my board position is more important than combat tricks. Felt I wanted some more draw, so figured the Admirers would fit quite nice here. I realize the deck is now extremely cluttered around the 3-mark, though... Hmm.

-4 Kathari Bomber
-3 Chorus of Might

+3 Rockslide Elemental
+2 Beastmaster Ascension
+2 Masked Admirers

I feel this evolving more to a token deck, so will probably want to drop the Rockslides for Krenko's, or put the Katharis back in? I'm on the fence about Quest for the Gravelord aswell, although it fits nicely with all the dying going on here. As Megabeast hints at under here, Doubling Season is also something to consider.. Hmm.. Arghh, this game is driving me crazy lol

How has Kathari Bomber been for you? When I played this archetype I felt it really underperformed.

Thorn-Thrash Viashino was a pretty good card I felt, at 3 max. He's got a LOT going for him.

Rockslide Elemental and Scaveger Drake both surprised me in this format as well. I mean.. look at your removal suite, stuff is going to be dying everywhere Normally I think those two cards are bad.. but, in these devour decks.. they basically must be answered or they get out of hand really fast. Ditto for Kresh. I know you like the rarely played 'fun' cards.. and those two are really fun. I set my damage record on the backs of those cards (and Doubling Season).. 11,000+ to a conceeded opponent. I had to turn auto-resolution on halfway through.. so many counters!

Ohh yea, totally overlooked those 3. :O
I must admit, I really like the Katharis imho. They're not as reliable as Krenko's, but they do add an additional "creature dies"-trigger, aswell as some air presence. I actually do like the Rockslides, but I feel the Scavengers might be a tad too expensive maybe.. Hmm.. I am considering dropping the chorus/craterhoof alltogether and just going all-in on the devour/"creature dies"-theme.

Ok, I just found out an absolutely ridiculous thing about Auger Spree and Kresh. If you use Auger Spree to kill a creature while Kresh is on the board, the +4 P is still taken into consideration before deciding how many +1/1 counters Kresh gets. I guess most of you knew this already, but it gave me quite a hard-on when I saw it happen.

you just convinced me to make a deck with kresh in it