It's also exploitable with Illusionist's Bracers and Niblis of the Breath, so I guess that's where I'd be looking.

The Bracers are way too expensive and slow, but Niblis is cheap. I'm not sure what else blue has to offer, though, but it's definitely worth looking at.

Bracers on a Niblis are great though. 1 Blue mana per untap is a win-con in the right deck. Other than that, you're looking at Perstermites and Shorestalkers I suppose in Blue for combo cards with Timberwatch.

Hybrid Elf/Faerie deck?

Just had a good thought - if you're not running Reprisal with Timberwatch Elf, you're probably doing it wrong...

EDIT - Mentioned upthread already. Doh!

Military Intelligence and/or Bident seems like they could work well there also with unblockable stuff.

Breaching Hippocamp is a thing if you are really looking to push the untap aspect.

Archaeomancer could be used to recycle pump spells maybe?

Artful Dodge could help with pushing damage through.

Mercurial Pretender is a thing too.

Vapor Snag is always useful for clearing the way and buying time when you need it too.

That is about all I can really think of that could offer something like this outside of the already mentioned Niblis of the Breath. Pestermite, and Triton Shorestalker

Switcheroo could also work. Remember, the Elves only need to be on the battlefield, not just your side of the board. Giving them a Visionary is no drawback at all.

They'd also be good with Guard Gomazoa. Everyone seems to be thinking offensively, but using them to threaten making walls deadly is another good use to prevent attacks. Likewise, protecting a Roil Elemental is a good use considering how frail they are, and most kill being damage based.

Lastly, Cloudfin Raptor would also Evolve in a very niche situation where two creatures that could Evolve it came into play at the same time that could only otherwise Evolve once due to having the same P/T. If both were capable, the abilities would go on the stack and the first would resolve. As long as you boost the second creature before it fails due to the first one passing and it no longer having a higher P/T, it will also resolve.

This would have relevance if you played a 2/2, then flashed in a Faerie. Or split a Chasm Skulker and the Raptor was a 0/1 still. Or if it had a higher P/T and you were creating Soul of Zendikar tokens. Very, very narrow, but something to consider if it came up in a rare situation. Especially as some lists here are running Battering Krasis.

...pushing on with the "using it for defence, not offence" theme, how about Palisade Giant? It boosts the toughness, not just the power afterall.

The elf plan is indeed just too weak overall, and Selesnya Evangel is at odds with Timberwatch. One wants to go wide while the other wants evasion to get in big juicy hits. I ended up in Bant for exalted and fliers but the mana was terrible and after I cut the elves it morphed into a UW fliers list that was decent but not great.

Got a chance to actually play some games with the Wolf deck I made against Mastercardgold yesterday and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised.



This thing is legit.

Literally the only thing I dislike about the deck just so happens to be what inherently makes it good.

The deck has almost no interaction with your opponents creatures at all. This means if your opponent manages to drop something big and threatening, about the only thing you can do is race it with your unblockable guys. This actually seems to work though.

A surprising number of games seem to go T1 Spire Tracer>T2 Wandering Wolf>T3/T4 Sigil Blessing....basically GG.

Raised by Wolves is a complete stud here and is an absolute blast to play. While I don't think it is quite as good as some of the other new cards we got ( like Sheoldred and Pyromancer), with the correct build it can be pretty overwhelming and is just plain fun to play. If the card sticks it is 6 power being put onto the table for 5 cmc with no additional investment, and we often have Gnarlids to put it on and Young/Wandering Wolves sitting around to pump its output up even further.

On a Aura Gnarlid with just 1 other wolf on the table (Young/Wandering) Raised by Wolves becomes 8 power on the table for 5cmc (two 2/2 wolf tokens, +3/+3 from the wolves on the table, +1/+1 from Gnarlids Aura ability).

The deck also has the ability to come back from scenarios where you would otherwise think you were completely boned. Won a game at 1 life with the opponent sitting on 2x Runescarred Demon and a Maelstrom Archangel by slapping Raised By Wolves on a Gnarlid and attacking in for 8 unblockable damage.

So I've been testing a change I mentioned some time back and have been quite happy with it. The deck never had an interaction option with my opponent so I basically just took hits and attempted to race. If they could mess with my board, then it was all about getting ahead in draw to rebuild. While this did work, it often was a huge tempo loss and allowed them to continue advancing their board to a point where I was on the defensive. It's not to say I didn't draw my way out of games but a deck like this is meant to be the beat down, not the control so defensive games where usually lost games.

Since I didn't want to add a bunch of ways to mess with their board and dilute the deck, I went the route of stopping them from messing with mine. I added Gods Willing to the mix and in doing so, dropped Mentor of the Meek (and a Sigil Blessing and a Reclamation Sage) Mentor is great for digging back out of holes and dry/flat hands but its mana sink is just another tempo loss in this deck. The deck is fairly good at curving out and then playing multiple cards a turn from there so Mentor ended up just playing too slow most games. With Hunter's Prowess in the mix and having removed Elvish Pioneer a while back, I think I'm ok with where the draw currently is. This will require more testing for sure!

This change has definitely helped keep the Timberwatch Elf, Paragon of Eternal Wilds and Elder of Laurels around longer therefore making a difference in the pressure/ output.

I'm curious if this deck could consider Hall of Triumph since I'm getting back on board with the lord/anthem effects. I was slow playing my Paragons too much before and that was a mistake. The buff makes a big difference and a '4th copy' could be useful. Considering the curve, I wonder if this deck could operate at 22 lands? Maybe Jungle Shrine for a 5th tapped land could work if I went to 22?





elk


edit note - I'm now on the anthem/lord bandwagon as additional pressure and it has further increased the deck's sustainability (I made the land change for Hall of Triumph and so far so good!). I'm now even getting to board stalls against mid range/ top heavy decks which is actually a good sign (especially with the trample/pump and Beastmaster options).

No Enlarge? That thing is a game winner in these decks. I'd cut Beastmaster. Enlarge wins faster.. and its removal, sort of.

I like the God's Willing addition.. its smart. Good stuff.

How has Selesnya Evangel been? I had her in my elf deck and I hated her.

Selesnya Evangel is definitely a thing in this deck. It meets the elf requirement and poops out tokens that get the anthem/lord effects and synergizes with the numbers game this deck wants (Beastmaster Ascension/ Elder of Laurels/ Sigil Blessing). Oddly enough it's also a 1/2 where as a lot of the weenies here are 1/1 so that extra butt makes it slightly better against aggro/tokens in the first few turns.

Enlarge could get a test run but I'm not entirely sure it's needed. There is a reasonable amount of pump in the deck now and a few trample/evasion options (even Gods Willing is now pseudo evasion) and since I've cut down to 22 lands, it's making the 4 and 5 slot a real top end now to reach.

Beastmaster is beastmaster. This deck is still wanna be tokens where you're dumping out little dudes and either ending up wide or pumping straight through. Having a card that just wins the turn it's played and fits the theme is worth keeping around for now (or at least not getting bumped for cards in 5 CMC slot).

FYI for those interested in the build - I've edited the post above to make another minor change. Still testing it but think its a good change for the deck.

elk

22 land feels a bit slight for a deck with eight cards above three and Selesnya Evangel. How good are Reclamation Sage and Masked Admirers? It seems you mainly want the bodies here and these aren't efficient bodies. I know they're elves, but you would still have 16 without them. Have you thought about adding Young Wolf in those four slots? He's not thematic but he would lower the curve significantly and he's annoying for other decks to face. I would also try to squeeze in Brimaz, I think you could cut a Sigil Blessing. You already have three Paragons, the Hall, and two Beastmasters as team buffs so you may not miss the extra Blessing too much.

I think I will try this deck again, this version looks better.

Thoughts?

Surprisingly I like Masked Admirers but that's just me and could be a fence card. I will say that it works with Vengevine for pressure/trades and is a decent size with the anthem/lord effects. It is slow but it is pseudo draw especially after dumping Mentor. Most notably though; which is a subsection of the recursion, it's the tip of the spear. It is the easiest choice to fire into my opponent and pump/trample/evasion and not be overly worried about the draw back of it being bounced/blocked/traded/killed etc. Now that I'm able to get to a stalled board position, these are the cards that let me keep swinging with some sort of upside resulting from it.

Reclamation Sage is a fence card (and would definitely be a sideboard card in any other circumstance). It does work in most match ups since everyone seems to have some sort of an enchantment/artifact floating around but I do find I sit on the card a lot waiting to get the benefit out of its ability. I agree that there are 16 other elves if you were to cut these 2 options but critical mass is definitely important. Getting to and keeping 3 or 4 elves on the board for Timberwatch Elf is a thing (Timberwatch really is the reason for even considering the tribal theme). Thank goodness Elvish Visionary is a card staple in most green decks.

You're probably right about the 22 lands. 23 never seemed to be an issue (and anything after 6-7 seems to be dead draws) so I figured one more land wouldn't kill the deck but I'd rather not be stalled at certain points of the game (and like you mentioned, Evangel and Laurels are things here). I had hoped the additional tap land could cover the gap but I'll have to keep testing to see how often I get boned by land drops/activation costs.

elk

@ Hakeem - FYI I'm back to a 23rd land and testing Brimaz for the Sages (For now; because of the double cost, I keep the 5th tap land and add another forest for 11 Forest/ 7 Plains/ 4 Selesnya Guild Gate and 1 Jungle Shrine). It's unfortunate that Brimaz and his tokens are white therefore don't get any benefit from the anthem/lord effects but it is still Brimaz (and it still works with Sigil Blessing, Beastmaster and Elder).

Hope you (and others) spin it again for additional feedback.

Thanks!

elk

Brimaz has been good and the extra token(s) have helped make Sigil Blessing/ Elder of Laurels/ Beastmaster even better (Sigil Blessing is a really great card in this deck. I almost want to put the last one in).

What do you think about a copy of Safe Passage?

Gods Willing has been a nice inclusion both defensively and offensively. It's actually why I wondered about Passage (as a 5th pseudo copy). The 'out draw removal' plan I was running before wasn't bad but the 'stump removal' has been better. The one down side is still multiple pieces of removal but more to the point, Anger of the Gods. I need at least 3 lord/anthem effects in play to get out of this cards range and generally folks won't let me have quite that many . I realize there are only 2 copies to worry about but this card just destroys tokens/weenie/aggro and everyone is packing it. There are games you can climb back out but since I've removed some draw, it's become tougher to recoup (and this deck wants to overextend). The fact is, it's a card that is always a factor to deal with when playing these types of builds. The question is then, do you just accept the loss due to the one answer card almost everyone carries or do you dilute your deck to put in 1 defensive spell? I'm sure the answer is 'just suck it up, buttercup' but figured I'd pose the question anyway.

elk

elk, I've played the new deck and it is pretty good. I wasn't sold on Reclamation Sage or Hunter's Prowess and Masked Admirers was strictly average in most matchups. I know you've got to keep the elf count high for Timberwatch, but there were always things I'd rather do on four mana.

eon, I tried the wolf deck as well and it's also a bit of fun. I cut the two copies of Hunter's Prowess, though, and replaced them with Brimaz and one Elder of Laurels to increase the pressure. Prowess is too slow for this deck, I think. I also cut the Jungle Shrines because OCD and am playing 4 Gates, 10 Forests, and 9 Plains.

As you suggested and I posted above, I cut the Sages for a land and Brimaz. Prowess is another Trample enabler for the pump effects (since Paragon is sometimes hard to keep around) but it's basically the only card draw. That hand restock can basically change/win a game (Elvish Visionary and Masked Admirers are filters even though Admirers can have some recurrence). Actually Prowess was another suggestion you had made way back and why it's in the deck now. It's made a difference in quite a few games which makes it worth keeping.

Just so it's current, here's the list as it stands:




Still curious about what folks think of the Safe Passage idea I mentioned in the post above. Would love to hear some folks' feedback.


elk

I didn't see the change in the table, my bad. When I played it, the deck felt like it was way more powerful whenever I put Selesnya Evangel into play. Going wide with tokens and buffing them with Anthems seemed to be the best avenue for the deck's success, and in that regard Prowess felt weak. I think I'd rather just play the Mentors, especially with the token production.

I don't think you want Safe Passage, you said earlier that you want to be on the beatdown plan not on defense. Gods Willing performs both functions and gives you a little bit of card selection for just one mana, Safe Passage just chills out in your hand and beats the occasional burn spell or Craterhoof. I can't see it doing a whole lot overall.

I've tried Timberwatch in a number of decks now and I don't think there's enough in the pool to justify playing him.

I can totally see that. I like them because they can help to dig us out of a hole against some of the more controlling matchups where we peter out too early. That said, the deck is pretty much all in as it is on killing your opponent before they kill you, and Prowess is definitely slow on that front.

I feel you are correct about Brimaz as well. I think you are right that he should be worked into the deck here somewhere. He meshes pretty well with the pump/aura spells and is a pretty big roadblock for aggro decks, which I feel will be a huge help against them since this decks only real recourse against them is to try and race them.