Uncounterability on a 6 mana banefire is not enough upside to run it over another, faster card that actually fits your gameplan. Banefire is functionally a single target fireball before that, and fireball is not playable in this kind of deck. 20 land decks play threaten effects if they're trying to go large, not fireballs.

I'm sorry but the way that you're coming across is demanding. You're telling me how to play the game, and telling me how I should build my decks, and to me it sounds very know-it-all-ish. So I'm going to be blunt and straightforward too.

You SOUND like you know what you're talking about. But have you played any D15? Do you know what the format looks like? Tokens. I'm not paying 3 mana for Act of Treason just to kill a 1/1 Saproling token. I'll play Banefire.

I don't know you personally, and I've never seen you around here before, but it sounds to me like you play paper magic. You're using different names of cards that do the same things as the cards in this format. I'm sure "threaten effects" are better than "fireball effects" in whatever format you're used to playing in when using 20 land decks that "go large." But for me... in this format... "threaten effects" don't do much.

So thanks for the advice, but no thanks. I'm sure there are people here in the forums that will listen to and take your advice, but it sounds like you're directing it at me, so I'll just pass on it.

Ayjay I love ya. I think you're misinterpreting David's posts as being demanding. I'm reading them just as someone that wants to talk about bonfire in these types of decks. It's totally cool that you disagree, but I don't think there's any bad faith on his side.

For what it's worth

Let us not get all up in a tizzy about it.

I feel I have done a relatively good job in explaining the particular benefits and detriments of both Banefire and Act of Treason.

Both seem to be viable options that attack the meta from different angles (Banefire is better against Token decks, Act is better against ramp/lifegain decks). Both seem to be pretty common in the meta, so I can see the benefits of both choices, which is why I said it may work out well to go with a 1:1 split between the two.

I've played the format, and it's not all tokens. I play control for the most part, and the token decks are fairly obnoxious because the cheap counter that beats most other decks doesn't work against Krenko's Command and Raise the Alarm, and one-for-one removal isn't good against two 1/1s. Those cards show up in maybe a third of my games though, and I play removal for token producers in most decks. Also, threatens and fireballs are both reach for fighting against larger decks that brickwall you; if you're seeing mostly token decks, why are you looking to banefire them? You can go wider and larger, and you play faster removal than the decks that generate saprolings. You probably also cut the trumpet blasts if you're worried about your opponents going wide, since that's the kind of thing that makes trumpet blast bad. The main issue with Banefire is that you're playing a 20 land deck; you straight up shouldn't be planning to flood out when you're playing less lands than most everyone you meet.

Threaten and fireball are fairly common catch-all names for certain kinds of cards that Wizards likes to print very similar permutations of. Cards that fall under certain umbrella effects tend to just be called the name of the first card that carried the effect. The name ramp is probably used here without much thought, even though that word finds it's roots in the card Rampant Growth. Those names are used for a few reasons; Fireball is a recognized name, and magic players use that name over banefire, volcanic geyser, banefire, demonfire, crater's claws or ghitu fire because you can expect that the other person will recognize it. Case in point: you recognized it. It's also used as a yardstick, because people know how good the original card was, what it's used for, and so the properties of that card can be transferred to the remixes of that card that Wizards prints. Fireballs don't tend to make it even in the sideboards of low-curve decks while threatens do, in standard, and against certain fields. Both are suboptimal and should be replaced with another spell to clear the path, or a cheap general counter if Wizards sees fit to add it to the game.

This isn't standard. Banefire is working for me in the deck, whereas act of treason eats a token. I'm done arguing the topic.

DLC updated deck.



Simple strategy. Empty your hand as soon as possible, attack with all while stopping problematic creatures from blocking, then finish with a Bushwhacker or a Bombardment. The addition of Pyromancers just gives the deck a nice little boost. Nothing major, but they slot in perfectly.

I hope to never play against the above deck. That's a hyper fast list. Multiple Raid Bombardments with Young Pyromancer amplifying the token production.. Snarecaster AND Shortcutter
.. ouch.

It's actually largely my first ever D15 deck, as it's the one I beat the campaign with (in various states as I unlocked everything). I purposely wanted a fast one to cut the grind down, and had the entire collection unlocked by day two!

It's not changed much from the older list other than removing two Tectonic Rifts, which were always a little superflous, so the Pyromancers really just finish off the deck nicely as not only are they great cards, but they get rid of underperforming ones too.

I'm not a big fan of aggro, so don't play this often, but it is pretty fun to have a game or two with. Had many a turn 4 kill with it too.

Hey Monk, HeadKase took your deck out for a spin on his channel. I won't have time to watch until later tonight, but I thought I'd post it here for you to take a look at:

lol holy nonbo batman, that had me laughing. I agree that the kiln fiend is lackluster. stevo that boros deck looks tight, im going to run it after I run some selesnya builds, I've always been a huge fan of raid bombardment

It's a really consistent deck, because you essentially have 8 x of some key cards.

It is a turn 5 or bust deck though. It can win later than that, but unless you're dominant by then, it is diminishing returns from then onwards, and a case of trying to keep as many tokens in play as possible for a hopeful topdeck Bombardment or Bushwhacker KO.

Tell me how it treats you!

i love that youtube guy, he's awesome. It's cool he films himself, that's a good idea and I like that he interacts with the camera

Dammit, he's using Monk's old build before he added the mid-range bombs.

you know he doesn't have much faith in the build when he says, "ok, let's go and try and win..." lol

OMG why did he mulligan that 2nd hand? It was totally fine. I'm starting to think him losing with this deck isn't the deck's problem. uh oh, i'm starting to sound like another prominent NGAer

that's cool that he realizes like the rest of us did (except Eon) that Kiln Fiend has no business in this deck.

why didn't he attack with ogre and guttersnipe into that stupid deathtouch thing when he was holding god's willing with one mana? That seemed like a good play. ... ah wait, he was expecting another Tribune to Hunger? Ok.

lol, i love that his guttersnipe gets non-bo'd with the rabblemaster and he wasn't expecting it. But that's what shock is for.

"if he Tribute to Hungers, fak off" lol


in his 2nd game, i love his reaction to drawing kiln fiend, that was totally my reaction everytime I drew him in those types of situations. No idea what to do.

oh yuck! Why did he play triplicate spirits before playing a hasted kiln fiend?? oh wait, he's not attacking ground cuz of arsonist, right.

lol, "your gamertag looks like you feel asleep drunk and your head hit the keyboard and it came out like that"

loved that vid

Say what you will, but in probably a good 100 games or so Kiln Fiend has won me more games than Rabblemaster, Brimaz and Guttersnipe have.

I just can not bring myself to cut them, they just put in so much work. They consistently get me T4-T5 kills, and I have come to the conclusion that any hand you get with Kiln Fiend+Gods Willing is likely to be a game where you just win before any cards even hit the table.

I don't know how or why everyone else seems to have such a bad experience with them. I would say roughly 70% of the time I am able to engineer things where I am able to attack with them buffed at least once (often more) either with nothing blocking them, or as an unblockable, and in the roughly 30% where they aren't attacking in for damage, they are taking an opponents creature without trading (and sometimes gaining you a rather large chunk of life as well).

Cheers Hakeem, shame it is the old list, the new one is much better.

Eon, my issue is that I want my pyomancer going faster instead of waiting for me to play kiln fiend. Also all the times I've had gods willing with him, opponent seems to always have two colors out

See, I disagree. I personally want Kiln Fiend to be the one that is supercharged. I win more games off the back of Fiend than any other singular spell in the deck outside of maybe Gods Willing. I am not exaggerating when I say that Kiln Fiend does an average of about 8-10 damage for me in every game he hits the table and doesn't immediately get removed (which does happen some times, Gods Willing can't save us all).

Kiln Fiend also represents a pretty huge threat that often has to be answered right away. For this reason I think the addition of Young Pyromancer makes Kiln Fiend even better than it already was, because the amount of high priority threats we can devote to the board is higher.

Going T2 Kiln Fiend, T3 Pyromancer can put a lot of decks on the back foot. If they have removal they have to choose between killing Fiend (which will often kill them in a few turns if left unchecked) or killing Pyromancer (which will often kill them mid-late game by flooding the board beyond what they can control), and there is always the chance you have Gods Willing, in which case they just put themselves down a removal card, got hit by Fiend for 4 damage, and spawned you a token.

Effective use of Shock and Act of Treason helps a lot with getting Kiln Fiend through, especially alongside Gods Willing. Sometimes you are better off removing/stealing less threatening cards specifically so Gods Willing becomes a thing.

I was in a game last night I lost because I was a complete idiot and punted. Was playing against a U/B deck with Hedron Crab (which was part of the influence for the most recent deck I posted in the Dimir thread, sans the self-mill from Hedron Crab).

He had 2 Hedron Crabs on the table, and a Brain Maggot which he used to take a Gods Willing. He was sitting at 7 life.

I had a Kiln Fiend and a couple tokens on the table.

At this point in the game he had turned to milling me with the Hedron Crabs, and I was getting REALLY close to getting milled out. Cautionary tale of not taking hands that are very threat light (trying to get there for the first like 6 turns off of a couple token making spells and a few of the 1 mana instants just isn't where you want to be especially against a deck with discard). I got flooded with mana and combat tricks. Was overall just pretty terrible luck.

Anyways, he had 2 Hedron Crabs, and the Brain Maggot.

I drew a Shock and had a Krenko's Command in my hand. I cast Command, triggering Kiln Fiend up to a 4/2. Then, like an idiot, fearing for my Library (oh the shame of getting milled out) I used Shock on one of the Hedron Crabs to slow the clock he had me on. Kiln Fiend triggers up to a 7/2 and I attack in, he blocks with Brain Maggot. Brain Maggot dies and Gods Willing goes back into my hand.

I immediately realized I completely and totally **** the bed. If I would have Shocked the Brain Maggot, I would have got Gods Willing back. Then I could have cast Gods Willing on Kiln Fiend giving it protection from and I could have attacked in for.....oh look, 7 unblockable damage! I wanted to slap myself!

On that note though, I finally made the jump to dropping down to only 20 mana in my lower curve version (was running at 21 for a long time). I was looking for stuff to put in that last slot and I thought about Goblin Shortcutter. I didn't really feel right running only 1 though, so I dropped a single copy of our overall least effective combat trick to make room for a second copy.

Shortcutters give us some more early threats as a 2/1 to help combat scenarios where you would draw into too many non-threats (burn/combat tricks) early on and give us more targets for our combat tricks. They also work late game to help push damage through. Obviously they work well with Kiln Fiend, but they also work pretty well with tokens (allowing them to attack past things like Visionaries and other tokens early on). They are also more Gobbos to buff up Rabblemaster, which is another nice little bonus.

As a control player, I fear a resolved pyromancer far, far more than a resolved kiln fiend. Trying to kill a pyromancer doesn't properly kill it. I'd only prefer the kiln fiend if you can expect your opponent to have bad or not enough removal for it. I believe you've been annoyed at me in the past over saying something like this, but removal hurts kiln fiend more than it hurt young pyro because failing to protect the kiln fiend means your damage whiffs on a chump blocker, or it dies to removal along with it's pumps, while the pyromancer leaves behind 1/1s that also need to be dealt with. It's less explosive, wins slower, but also crumbles less hard if the game doesn't go your way.

No problem with you at all. Criticism and debating is more than welcome.

You make a fair point. Pyromancer certainly is more durable of a threat, which is certainly a good point.

I feel like the combination of what is available, along with the decks makeup itself helps make it better than it otherwise may be.

To better explain. Removal available in this format is generally pretty slow, which by itself goes a long way towards making Kiln Fiend more survivable.

I believe the increased threat density helps as well. Both Kiln Fiend and Pyromancer are cards people want to answer basically on sight. Having access to both of them means the other is more likely to survive. For comparison, your opponent may not use removal on a Goblin Shortcutter because, big whoop, a Piker, meaning when Pyromancer hits the table it is more likely to take that removal. With both Kiln Fiend and Pyromancer though, they now have to make a choice. Do I kill the creature that is going to bury me in tokens and kill me, or the one that can potentially hit me for 10+ damage out of nowhere.

I believe how the deck is constructed helps Kiln Fiend overcome its weaknesses pretty well also. Gods Willing does a great job of keeping it alive, and often helps it make that finishing blow, and the deck has means in Shock and Act in clearing the path for Kiln Fiend.

Kiln Fiend also works better with the Token support than people seem to admit. The fact he is such a huge priority to block helps you slip damage through in other places. If my opponent has 1 creature on the table and I have a Kiln Fiend and 2 tokens, I know pretty well that those tokens are going to get through for damage, because my opponent likely won't dare let Kiln Fiend through unblocked when I have mana up.

I have found them to be a huge help in dealing with some of the larger threats that can brick these types of decks as well. Oh, Nemesis of Mortals, well I guess I am going to use Coordinated Assault/Swift Justice on this Kiln Fiend and kill that for you.

I took the following Red/White tokens deck for a spin:





The deck is pretty brutal and Young Pyromancer made it a lot better.

Lack of removal is its only weakness, so an opposing Baneslayer can be a problem if you aren't swinging for lethal the next turn.
I don't think putting in Reprisal or Banisher Priest is the way to go, as the deck wants to be as streamlined as possible.

The verdict is still out on Gods Willing, but now with also Pyromancer to protect I think 2 copies are worth it.