Watch out for those Zombie Bears!

Hehe

It's a 2/2 on turn 2 that doesn't require extra mana to be useful. This means it can block a 1/1 token without me having to leave mana up for it every turn. Then it becomes a 3/3, and so on....... 9 times out of 10 it's better than drudge skeletons, which I consider to be a deceptively useless card if I'm going to try to cast things on curve. And corpse will almost always be a 3/3 or 4/4 before I'm done. 5/5 even happens.

Phyrexian Rager comes out turn 1 later, which is why I don't run it. The viscera draggers have been just as good draw-wise and work with the lords.

As for death baron, he boosts 13 other things in the deck . I don't want to cut that for Tormenter.

Tormenter is something I don't run because I think it's too slow for what basically amounts to an anti-aggro aggro deck with a few end game bombs. But i'll try them later.

Right now, I'll test -1 quest for the gravelord ; + 1 sheoldred, whispering one. Then I'll try some other stuff you've suggested like swapping things for tormenters, swapping a corpse or 2 out for stuff, etc.

Fair enough, sometimes that extra P/T does make a difference. My Abzan Seance deck runs a split of Elvish Visionary and Phyrexian Rager for this exact reason. Visionaries are cheaper, don't ping you, and are easier on the mana base so it seems logical to favor them above the Ragers, but that extra 1/1 was often the difference in not getting trounced by token decks.

I feel like the swap of Nightmare for Tormentor would be worth it. On average how big are you managing to get your Nightmares up to? Tormentor comes down a turn sooner and starts doing damage faster. It doesn't grow as big, so may have some issue attacking past Runescarred/Shadowborn Demon which I could see (although with Paragon of Open Graves). It has the upside of doing something good for you each turn it stay on the table too (either damage, a card, or them saccing a creature).

Tormentor gets exiled by Anger which is a huge downside.

With Tormentor being a 1 of and Anger being in relatively limited supply I don't think it will statistically come up often enough to worry about too much.

Certainly a valid point though. Something I didn't think about. Good call.

Nightmare is usually somewhere from 7/7 to 10/10. 8/8 is a fair standard.

Tormenter is a much worse attacker and blocker in general. It basically dies to most other big things that can block it or that it will want to block, including a lot of relevant fliers. It has some other nice effects, but I prefer the beatstick.

And while anger of the gods by itself won't always be that relevant, damage based removal in general...... yeah I would rather pay the extra mana for the beatstick.

Quick Question:

Are there fliers bigger than nightmare in this meta? Like, if I have an 8/8 nightmare, what's going to be able to block and kill it?

Tidehollow Strix.

the only thing I would find room for is Hall of Triumph

I would also replace Walking Corpse just because I can't stand to run vanilla in constructed

I think Vicious Hunger is underused and kills a fair share of creatures being played in this meta while gaining some life. The sorcery speed hurts it though.

Tormentor has added value here bc of Brain Maggot.. bc you can steal their Anger : )

But yeah.. its not my favorite card either. I'm not too concerned with Anger.. its a two-of and it exiles 80% of your creatures already. Are you not going to run them on the same premise? Are we cutting Graveborn Muse now bc she dies to Anger and Resounding Thunder? Where do we stop with that line if thought? Do we only play 5+ toughness creatures bc Augur Spree exists? ; )

I think a single Hall of Triumph could be good here too, as it helps that issue and synergizes well with the other lord effects.

It's the point of running a five-drop that gets exiled by a three-mana sorcery that's in every red deck besides Gobs. For just one more mana, you get a 6/6 flier that grows.

When I post in the mono-black thread it's about mono-black.

"Dies to bolt" is actually the reason why 3+ drops with 3 or less toughness aren't played in modern or legacy. When you're playing with a five drop that dies to bolt, it needs to be spectacular. The bolts in duels cost three mana, so, graveborn muse is actually (somewhat) playable here and the upside is nice. Indulgent tormenter is pushing it.

I disagree. Dies to removal has never been a valid argument. Dies to removal at loss of value certainly is, but outside of Ulcerate the economy isn't THAT bad. It is 5 power with Evasion, which closes out games quick. Beyond this, the trigger has the potential to make it very much an "answer me now or lose by getting buried in value" type of cards.

If it survives, from that turn on, either they give you a card, sac a creature, or likely take 8 damage to the face (3 from the trigger and 5 from it smashing you in the face).

Yes, there are situations where this isn't GREAT, but it is still incremental value.

Against a token deck, yeah, they can likely sac tokens all day to keep you from drawing cards, but that is still them saccing blockers/attacks, and that is still them likely taking 5 damage a turn from the creature itself (since token decks aren't likely to have a whole lot that can block it at all, let alone favorably).

Against a Lifegain deck, yeah that 3 extra damage a turn isn't HUGE, but it is still an extra 3 damage that you otherwise may not have done. Even if they have 100 life and can pay that 3 life cost all day, you likely have to bring them down to 0 life to win anyways, so you are still gaining value off of it. On top of the facebeating it does.

I know people expect to see 5 cmc cards and expect them to just outright win games, which I normally agree with. Baneslayer Angel certainly would agree.

I feel like this card should be looked at a little differently than the traditional "beat face, win game" card though. It needs to be looked at for its capability as a value engine just as much as for it's capability to end games by punching face.

Threat density and all that as well. Resounding Thunder hitting Tormentor is one that isn't hitting Graveborn Muse, and so on.

Obviously the card wouldn't see play in any sort of environment where Lightning Bolt or something equivalent was common, but outside of Ulcerate (which is relatively niche) most of the thing that kill it are 3 cmc or above, and that sort of economy isn't nearly as terrible as getting your 5 drop taken out by a 1 cmc spell.

Not trying to say the card is GREAT or anything, but I think the card is a lot more solid than people expect on first glance, and I have had a marginal amount of success with it in the little bit of testing I did pre-DLC with an MBC list.

If a creature dies to commonplace removal, and it costs too much more than the removal that kills it, you need to have a really good reason to be playing it. Indulgent tormenter has seen no play in any format because you tip 5 mana into him and he dies to any iteration of lightning bolt, most of which cost less than him, which isn't great. He doesn't actually get you anything when he hits the table, and he dies to removal that isn't all that uncommon. Griselbrand at the very least reloads your hand when he hits the table. Nightmare survives all but tribute to hunger and awful five mana kill spells in duels for one more mana. Instead of tapping out to play something an unspectacular card, you could be playing more removal/lands to get you to actual good cards.

Nightmare also doesn't die to any single card in battle once you hit 8 swamps, bar deathtouch or double strike.

..... Jack thinks.

I like to run 1.

First of all, let us stop acting like I am hailing the card like it is Treasure Cruise or something. Nowhere have I ever said the card was ZOMG great. Just that the card is more solid than people give it credit for.

Secondly, let us please stop with the paper comparisons, because it just doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

Saying that Indulgent Tormentor never saw play in any format it just outright silly. It may not have been a Standard/Modern/Legacy whatever.

The card most certainly showed up in decks in Sealed and Draft formats though. Which to be honest with you is a closer comparison to DotP than any of the bigger more hyped formats.

See, DotP isn't like Standard or Modern or Legacy. We have a very limited pool of cards to work with, and decks overall may not be able to be built exactly how you may like them to be. As such certain cards that are normally of less value suddenly become more playable, much like how sometimes in Sealed/Draft decks you run those bears because you just need another 2 drop

I completely see where you are coming from in your evaluation of the card, but you also have to consider that the meta makes a BIG difference when it comes to these sorts of things. As I said, if Lightning Bolt were a thing I would never even consider it. That said, with the state of removal being the way it is in the format, that isn't something you have to be quite as concerned about.

Also, in the future, please refrain from responding to me as if I have no idea what I am talking about. I have been playing MTG on and off since Mirage block first came out (admittedly, I was still pretty young back then >.>), and it really isn't helping your case any to treat me as if I started playing the game a week ago.

I am not going to suggest a card that is just going to fall flat on its face. If I make a suggestion, it is because I have a reasonable assumption/idea that it may work. Like I said, I never said that Indulgent Tormentor is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I will in fact say though that in this meta it is most certainly a solid card and more viable than most would be willing to admit. Most especially in a deck with enough threat density where it eating removal just means your next huge bomb is going to fly under the removal radar.

I agree completely. Tormentor is a solid card in this format.

He's great if he sticks, but I find that to not happen often enough. Of course I tend to play a lot of control, so perhaps that's why I undervalue him; he's just never given me much trouble.

Hard to see value in tormentor when the last two DLC's give more ways to kill him. Same goes for talrand, sky summoner these days I think

resounding thunder, galvanic arc makes me want to have an extra mana in hand + undying evil or cloudshift before I cast tormentor or talrand etc, so becomes too convoluted and I don't use em anymore

Like I said before.. Brain Maggot.

Look in their hand on T2.. take the Anger away. If they get lucky and draw it in the next 3-4 turns.. so be it. If you're mono black.. everything up to 5 mana besides Ogre Jailbreaker, Shadowborn and some other bad cards are all dead. Anger hoses all of blacks early game.. so.. the solution is Brain Maggot or lose your whole board.