Just because I don't think he's scum doesn't mean I think he's pursuing the best course of action for town. I've pointed out the flaws in his plan and I've pointed out why town has no reason to blindly accept his proposal, part of which is the fact that he's crutching on his NLP which is not as iron clad as he would like us to believe it is in this game. For town to make an informed decision on how they wish to proceed, do you not agree that they need as much information as possible on the matter, including what Zinger's NLP actually entails?

I'll give PopPa and Squinty about a day to post their thoughts. Then I'll post more of mine regardless of if they make it or not. After that time we will be in the roughly 72 hours (depending on when deadline is actually called; if it's the same time as day break we should be under, maybe more like 60 hours or so) till deadline phase and will start needing to make final decisions on day.

FFP's NLP actually didn't come from a lifestyle.

I guess, but it is just weird to go into detail about picking apart his NLP. I understand linking to it on this site is problematic because in pick your role mafia I asked about the NLP and was linked to another mafia game. But you could have simply said that lies of omission were allowed instead of the story about how you were mafia and bored.


For anyone that doesn't know of Zinger's NLP here is what was linked the last time I asked. !5377 is not wrong, lies of omission are stated as being allowed.

I explained why I don't put faith in his nlp just as I would explain why I have a scum or town read on somebody. I don't find that weird at all.

So PopPa seems content to say as little as possible and Squinty is still a no show, so I'll just say my piece now. I have one other contender for scumspect. That player is Tiny. As fel notes his play seems a little off this game. To me he seems to be doing all he can to straddle the fence, not leaning too far in either direction. This is explained by the role he breadcrumbed, however. But this sparked a trigger for me. Something Neo said actually.



Now call me crazy but it seems that known scum is breadcrumbing Tiny's role nearly 2 weeks before Tiny is. Now if Neo was just talking about a standard cop, I probably wouldn't be so hung up on this, but it's the extra detail he gives of the flavor linkings that aren't common place in mafia that hang me up. This says to me that Neo had knowledge about such a role being present in the game prior to any claims of such. The simplest explanation, in my opinion, is that of scumbros sharing their roles with each other.

Thoughts?

15377, I believe we are not getting across to one another clearly. Either you are misunderstanding me, or you are dead set on discrediting. Not sure which it is. Not sure I care to find out. seTiny is right. This discussion between you and I is helping no one except the scum team who is pointing and laughing no doubt.

I understand your stance perfectly. It's your way or the highway. Which is not a good mentality for town to have. You can deny that's the stance you have but as I've offered an alternative to your plan that achieves the same ends without town having to forsake it's main objective and you've continued to ignore it you make it perfectly clear that is your stance. Town's primary objective is to achieve town's win con. That is not your plan. The logic behind not forsaking your win con for a wild goose chase is not hard logic to understand. Since I know you're a smart enough guy to grasp what I'm saying I can only come to the conclusion that it's not that we are not coming across clearly, it's just that you don't want to give up on the game playing out exactly like you want it to. Simply put, you think you know best, but as I've pointed out you can't back that up without crutched arguments and assumptions. And that is just not good enough a reason to forsake the town win con. This is my entire argument in a paragraph. As you can see, discrediting you plays no part in it because the whole point is you don't have credit to begin with.

Official Vote Count
Storyteller
15377

No Lynch
zinger

Due to the instability of the last few days, I'll be moving the deadline to
Sunday 15th, 22:00 GMT+1

I am with numbers on this. I see no reason to play along with Zinger's plan except as a back-up plan. Also, do people in mafia games really consider about NLPs and such? I personally don't see the reason to be too caught up on that.

As for Neo's statement, any chance that he is just trying to make himself sound more impressive? But the point is interesting.

Initially I thought he was setting himself for a later claim, that's why I made a mental note of it, but then he went and died scum and another player is now making that claim.

As for NLPs, they aren't very common things to come across and are usually only weighted by your experience with the player and how well you know them personally. The most common reaction to a newer NLP is along the lines of, "You got an NLP? That's cool bro, I got a unicorn tied up in my backyard." After that experience and knowledge come though, it's just second nature. You'll know what from that person you can take as truth and what should be taken with a grain of salt. In some instances you can use it to your advantage, such as in Star War Mafia on the mothership where the cops (crazy set up, just roll with it) could have their results delivered to a second person as well as themselves. I had mine delivered to FFP so that he could confirm that the information I was giving to the town was accurate without there being talk of scum colluding on a fake claim.

You go into detail about concerns of a no lie policy that could have been stated simply but give no detail here. How has my play seemed a little off?



I straddle no fence. I thought my position was clear I believe storyteller to be a prime suspect. I also try to get the two people I believe are town to stop arguing betwwen themselves. I believe Zinger's claim, including the day 6 auto win. I do not agree with his urgency for the no lynch. The only reason to no lynch today would be if there was no scum suspect, for me that would be if storyteller could somehow prove he is town.



I thought maybe you were quoting something neosilk said out of context to make you case since you only included a single line. However after looking at the full context it does appear to be a strange statement.

Though neosilk's flip only gave his name, not his role. So perhaps he was referring to his own role. Unless we have someone that can get information from the dead we can't know for sure. Having similar roles duplicated is not uncommon in mafia. In my first game on these forums Felbastia, Scarlet, and myself were all roleblockers. Scarlet being the scum aligned.

Refer to what you quoted from me right below where you said this.



I do not concur. And this post combined with your first post from today is a prime example of it. At start of day Zinger said, "Hai guyz! Let's No Lynch!" And you said, "I don't see why not." Your initial post doesn't convey a single iota of not being full in on a no lynch, merely conceding that day shouldn't be called early so that town can be in a better position later in the game. Yet now that zinger is not drawing support, you say the only reason to no lynch today is if there was no suspects what so ever. Tell me how that isn't you trying to play both sides of the argument.



It's possible, but not probable. Of course anything is possible in the land of mafia. But the probability is low. And I'll tell you why. Between you, me and he, that'd make three cops in a 12 player game. Naturally you can see why that probability is low. I made a mental note of Neo's statement not because I believed he was gearing up for a cop claim himself, but in reality because my initial assumption was that mafia had been forewarned about role cops in lieu of being given fake claims. It was this line that turned me on to the notion that Neo was probably scum in the first place, as you can note I start being aggressive towards him immediately after the post he said that in.

Which brings us back around to you. Everything you said about my role was spot on. This took me from mafia has been forewarned to I have a counterpart. Now given that Neo seems to have intimate knowledge about the cops of this game and the unlikeliness that there are three cops, that lends itself to the notion that one of us is decidedly scum. Since I knew it wasn't me, I decided to watch you as the Story argument played out. To this end there are (debatably) three posts. The first mirrors my arguments. The second mirrors Story's arguments. The third is your reads post in which you read story as a mixture of my and Story's arguments that make concessions for everything we both said. Again, another fence straddle. I can easily see you and Story rounding out the scum team. Your arguments against Story are a bit underarm lobed soft balls that are convenient to point back to in the need to bus, but aren't overwhelming to the point where you couldn't ignore them to no lynch if Zinger had pulled more support.

I suppose all that's left now is to drop the role deets. I am Marisa Kirisame. Gensokyo algined (obviously). I am a thief. Each night I can steal possessions from a player. Night 1 I targeted PopPa due to the suspicions I had on him day 1 as well as being able to verify the information Garren had put out the day before. PopPa had nothing worth taking but it had looked like an animal had shed all over his place, confirming Garren's claim that PopPa was Kagerou Imaizumi, who is a werewolf. Of course day break and the town flip of Garren confirmed he wouldn't have been lying anyways so that night was a wash. Last night I attempted to target confused because frankly I read confused like a book that's been duct taped shut. But as we know I was blocked by Story last night so I have nothing to offer there.

Personally I feel like the case against Tiny is stronger than the case against Story since it involves roles, actions, and interactions but I also recognize that to me it's going to seem stronger since I'm the opposite side of the coin here. But in any event...

Unvote. Vote: Tiny

I had figured you placed such faith in Zinger's claims because you were cop that had scanned zinger town, but seems I was wrong.
My suspicion of Zinger returns.

@My play: If you notice the timestamps of my posts over the last three weeks you would notice that I have been posting late at night (around and after 8PM EST) instead of my normal between 9AM-6:30PM there is a reason for that. I have been very busy at work and it is keeping me away from my work computer. So I am limited to playing this mafia game from home during my relaxing and family time. Which means I can't sit and pour over the thread looking at every detail in each post like I can when I play from work. As it is right now, I am eating lunch at my desk so I can post this.

@Role: Your role is different than mine. I get names back when I target someone, not little bits of flavor text like you (an animal shedding all over the place). I got your name Marisa Kirisame , I used the wikipedia entry to come up with a vague enough description of you without giving away your information. If you look at the box on the right under abilities you can see where I the information for the description.

I now suspect that neosilk partially outed your role, one based more on flavor, and you've been holding onto that in case there is another "cop". A preemptive strike in case someone noticed it when you had to claim. You also mention you are a thief and that Pariah had nothing worth taking. Thieves are informative roles, a variant of the flavor cop, but can also be permanent role blockers by stealing an item. In this game the only item that I can see worth stealing is the mallet.

From the post that started day 1 :


I bolded the bit that is interesting. The mafia doesn't seem to currently have the mallet and you can steal it. Very interesting.

I have run out of time for this post, but I have more to say tonight when I get home.

@Zinger because 15377 claiming in his last post means I cannot proove my claim with his name. Which would force me to use your name, but that is your information that you've kept secretive. With your permission I would make that information public. Without your permission I will leave it unsaid.

@15377 if you had not claimed thief or claimed at all today I would still be looking at storyteller and not you. I would have merely thought you found something strange and were trying to get to the bottom of it.



Zinger's no lynch push was never drawing support. You and Fel say clearly that you did not believe in the no lynch at all. I don't think anyone else has stated their opinion on the no lynch.



You simply claim I said something without quotes or links. Are you hoping that people are just going to believe you? Let me quote them for you.



Here I soft claim to add support to someone I believed was town. So yes I guess it could be looked at as mirrored. However do you add support for someone's argument without "mirroring" their argument? The next time you believe someone is on the right coarse and have information that supports that argument I would love to see how you don't "mirror" it.



Here are the two storyteller posts I was responding to, combined to save space:



As anyone can see I was not mirroring his argument, but giving reason why his defense could be true but still be false.



A mixture of the two you say? Or is it a continuation of my day two suspicions. Here's my post from day two when I was challenging storyteller's claim.



Hmm. Seems like an argument I made well in advance of yourself, or storyteller. Before my edit I show the hesitation he presented to my questioning, the same hesitation he showed when 15377 asked. So there were 4 people he didn't target Nilkor, Garren, Squinty, and Lilan. I also knew he did not target me because I was ale to get my read. If he would have claimed that his target was untargetable, which would not have been out of the realm of possibility for a character that freezes their target, I would have known he did not target zinger as well. Leaving very few targets of interest, and none that were on his suspicions.



This is what made me interested in you as I posted early today.



I know for sure that story targeted you last night. It is interesting that there was no NK last night as well. If you believe that story and I are scum why would we both target you last night and not have a nk as well? Why would mafia choose to kill you? It seems much more likely that you were delivering the NK and got blocked.

Objectively speaking, there are 4 possibilities for last Night.
Numbers and I are both town and mafia targeted numbers.
I am town and numbers is mafia. Numbers attempted to kill last night.
I am mafia and numbers is town. I froze numbers, and the town doc saved someone elsewhere.
Numbers and I are both mafia and numbers is bussing me.

I highly doubt 4 sounds like an option for anyone so we can discard that.
I'm not sure 2 is a thing since he was one of the first ones to jump on slaying Neo. However, as it stands, he has no way of proving one way or the other. Also, I've personally asked Scarlet of I can block NKs by targeting mafia, but Scarlet has not deigned to answer me.

Also, I totally forgot about the flavor with the mallet. It sounds more like town will be screwed if we let it last too long. What says you to that, Mr. No Lynch for the auto win?
This really makes me consider the conspiracy theory where numbers and zinger are mafia arguing on both sides of their win con, and if zinger wins they get the auto win while if numbers wins, he gets town cred. The recent bit about the nlp could even be construed as a part of this.

Except you. Let's not forget you, who started this day supporting a no lynch.



No, I expect people to actually read the thread.





So what I'm seeing here is you claim you aren't mirroring then go on to say exactly why you're mirroring. In the first point you concede that it may be viewable as mirroring. In the second you say you are giving reasons Story's defense is valid (his argument) while giving reasons it's not (my argument). Which is exactly what I said you were doing.



Let's take a look at your day 2 post. First paragraph boils down to "it's possible you're lying". Second paragraph reads "you didn't target a dead person, thus we can conclude that you targeted a living person to either save them or block them. If you give us information we can evaluate your level of townness". This isn't an argument against Story. It's a statement of the obvious followed by some fishing.



Who said they wanted to kill me? If we look at things from the notion that you and Story are scummates, it benefited the scum team more for me to be alive. Yesterday I rallied hard against Neo and made the comment at end of day that if Neo flipped scum it would look extremely bad for Story. A scum Story in this position needs to do something to save face in the town's eyes. Given his claim the most obvious thing to do is a doc save. Whether Story has the capacity to save or not would be irrelevant if he's scum, as they could simply no hit to give credit to his doc claim. Obviously Story would have to target me in case of trackers or the like out there. But as Story said earlier, he was pulling cop vibes off of me. If this is the case then it wouldn't be questionable to turn to his scum role cop partner to get the scoop on if it's viable that I'm actually a cop or not. If I am then they can kill me the following night after a completely unprompted restriction info dump by Story to justify why he couldn't save again. Granted there's never going to be evidence of this in thread in either direction so it's simply a matter of what people choose to believe.

@Story: On your suspicion of Zinger, I believe it's unfounded. As I've said previously on his NLP, it's definitely crafted in a way for him to be deceptive, but he's bound from telling outright lies. With that in mind, we have Zinger claiming the town win con (in addition to his other one). Now Neo didn't seem to recognize this, which would indicate to me that scum didn't know how it was worded. This further indicates that even if Zinger wanted to crush his NLP this game with an outright lie, I don't think he possibly could have. Zinger being town is something that you can "take to the bank" as they say. This, however, does not mean that he has been playing towards town's best interests though, at least from a lay town perspective.

I'll be on a trip until wednesday, and I'm probably not going to be able to post again before the deadline, so this most likely will be my last post today. The Numbers/Tiny debate is interesting, but I can't really take a stance without reading everything again. For now, though, I have to say that Tiny's behavior is now much closer to what I'm used to and that I'm getting scum vibes from Numbers. I'll definetely look closer here if I get the chance next day.

For now, though, I still think the most pressing task for Town is trying to prove Zinger's info, and there's no better way to do that than a lynch. For that matter

Vote: Zinger2099

@Scarlet: We need some action taken regarding Squinty. He's still a no show today.

Hey, sorry, my internet's been on the fritz for the past several days. I'm really sorry for the inactivity, but for some reason I haven't even been able to browse the damn site for a while.

~SE++

Clear your cache.