Ah, my bad! I thought Unearth counted as 'casting' from the graveyard, the same as Flashback, but on checking the rules it doesn't. It works the same way as Wrecking Ogre does, an activated creature ability, which to my surprise, like the Ogre, also means it can't be countered by regular means as a result!

I'd never had someone try to counter an Unearth, but I always assumed that was due to not wanting to waste a spell on a card that was due to be exiled anyway, not that the game made it an illegal target. This actually makes the deck much better against control decks now I know that.

Although Mycoloth is a removal magnet, I like him because he interacts with almost everything. He compliments Spider Spawning by acting as a psuedo-Spawn every turn, but also by eating Wayfinders and Arsonists (which deal damage as a result) to fuel a subsequent Spawn or Nemesis. He's absurd with Battledriver, a huge trampling bomb with Prowess, and his massed tokens give instant vehicles for a Wrecking Ogre to deal 8 damage via.

Also, if someone can kill a Mycoloth, then they can also probably kill a lot of your other threats too, and I just feel the deck thrives on threat density. A kill spell spent on this, is one that can't remove a Battledriver, trampling Nemesis or a Wrecking token.

Just played you online, you were sporting Stevo's deck. Dude, a 5/5 Nemesis of Mortals can block and kill a double-strike 4/5 Rhox War Monk. I fully expected to trade, instead it dealt 16 damage to you in two attacks and then you quit...

So back to the ogre and under deck, don't know how my results are so different from anyone elses.

I just lost to an elvish pioneer enchanted with nimbus wings and marked by honor. He also used a hunt the weak on my rabblemaster.

I had already used my ground assault, no more removal was coming. Being hit for 5 damage every turn, then lose.

What was annoying was his deck was pretty terrible, clearly a 1/1 with two enchants usually would make you laugh. Using ogre and under it was a very serious threat to my existence and had to be answered, and simply couldn't. I had two nemesis of mortals in hand which I played two turns in a row, taking 5 damage in return each time. Meh???

The deck CAN work, but by no means is it a high win ratio. I just don't get this one.

It is unfortunate you saw no removal or blockers. This is a very solid list. Like I stated, I added shadowborn to help in this area.

I'd say it sounds more like you're just having bad luck with it than the deck itself being inconsistent.

Everyone I know who plays this and everyone else who's commented seems to get a high W/L with it. That seems pretty consistent by my book. Your results are the outliers here for whatever reason.

OK, after the recent discussions of the true power of Stevo's Ogre and Under, I felt I needed to give it a try. Used the deck list as posted as of today, but with the following changes:

- 2 Wrecking Ogre
- 2 Hunter's Prowess
+ 3 Sprouting Thrinax
+ 1 Shadowborn Daemon

And the land tweaked accordingly (more black). No Graveborn Muses. Here's the game breakup, since I have all games recorded:

Game 1: Selesnya tokens. Anger of the Gods has cleaned the board, he wasn't able to recover. This game featured a double-battledrived Hellspark Elemental. W
Game 2: Izzet Mill with a lot of walls. The guy kept milling me even when it should have been obvious that it only makes me happier. Well, two Spawnings for 12 finished it. W
Game 3: Mono-blue with Avarice Amulets?! I mulled down to 5. You would think his strategy would be to protect the creature wearing the Amulet, but nope, he tapped out on multiple occasions, with the expected logical consequence that the amulet ended up on my Thrinax. Then he learned that it's very hard for a mono-blue deck to kill a creature. Even if it runs Meteorites (???!). Called me "a lucky f-cker" in chat. Right. W
Game 4: WB lifegain. Two back-to-back Mycoloths won this game, which would be impossible without a Thrinax (the first Mycoloth got banished by a priest). W
Game 5: Same guy as Game 2. His intense milling resulted in a turn 3 Nemesis, followed by turn 5 Spawning for 7 or so. I admit that this is a horrible match-up for mill decks, he never stood a chance. W
Game 6: A really tame Golgari mix, or maybe he got a bad draw? The game featured two Bloodghasts, who didn't know what to do without any other sign of aggression from that deck. Ogres and others did their thing without much trouble. W
Game 7: Bant exalted. I kept a hand with three Mountains, Goblin Arsonist, Hellspark Elemental, Rabblemaster and a Ground Assault, which felt out of place. Full RDW mode on! Well, until turn 4, anyhow. The key play: killing a Rhox War Monk on turn 4 with the Ground Assault. The Rabblemaster HATES Rhox War Monks. Really. The rest of the game was quite interesting: the Rabblemaster traded with his Nemesis of Mortals, then he played a bunch of fat or first strike blockers that ate my tokens for breakfast. Luckily, I got a pair of Thrinaxes to keep the attacking crowd big enough to push the remaining few points of damage through. A very close and hard W
Game 8: Bant ...something unfocused with fat green creatures, some graveyard action and Elixirs of Immortality. I was lucky to have the removal for his fatties handy. W
Game 9: WU mill with a lot of walls and counters. I played a Mycoloth with no creatures to devour to keep pressure on his walls. He responded with a Guard Gomazoa and the game stalled for many turns. This guy was much more observant than the other mill guy and never tried to mill me. Eventually, I drew out his counters with repeated attempts at Spider Spawning and won the game with the Stormbreath Dragon. W
Game 10: Sultai graveyard recursion! This match-up could be tough. He started scary by dumping a metric a--load of cards into his graveyard early, but then ran out of steam. Judging by Archaemancers and Species Gorgers, I think this was a variant of Stevo's infinite turn Grave Concerns deck. I responded with a 10/10 Mycoloth, to which he had no answer and couldn't go infinite in time. W

This run was remarkable for me, first time I went 10-0 with anything from the get-go. I think the Thrinaxes are pretty good in this deck and were key in a couple of cases.

Glad you're having success with it!

Personally though, I think the Wrecking Ogre is key. Hunter's Prowess is a really good value card, but can probably be replaced for Sprouting Thrinaxes if you wish, but Wrecking Ogre delivers an absurd amount of KO wins for me. Just on an unblocked 1/1 token, that's 8 surprise damage! I get a large percentage of my wins from it, and couldn't live without it.

Also the Goblin Rabblemaster is less key now if you're removing Hunter's Prowess and Wrecking Ogre as he'll only combo with Mycoloth. Still a great card on its own, but he loses a lot of value removing those elements, and possibly doesn't justify his place as much without them.

I have tested Thrinaxes, and don't get me wrong, I think they are great in it, but they just seemed a little clunky for me. Probably as I took out Hellspark Elementals for them. Removing the KO cards for more creatures though probably adds more survivability to counteract the loss of those more explosive elements, and is a valid choice. It just changes the pacing.

At the end of the day, it's all really about what you feel comfortable playing. Everyone has a different style, and i'm not too precious about people making changes to my builds, just as long as they have fun with them.

To see if my build is still working for me, in light of others making changes, I thought I'd do the old 10 games in a row myself and see how the posted deck holds up as I haven't played it in a while (been having a serious love affair with the Infinite Turns deck...)

1) Tokens. The Rabblemaster is too fast for Jade Mage to keep up with and by the time he drops a Phantom General, his tokens are all dead. Turn 5 I have a weenie army including Wayfinders, but can't get 5th land for a Prowess or Wrecking Ogre for the kill, so double Unearth instead to take him to 4 life, then overrun him next turn. 1/0.

2) Artifacts. Arsonist and Rabblemaster hand again, which handily outraces a Glaze Fiend. Turn 5 win via Stormbreath. 2/0.

3) Spell Triggers/Tokens. Solid 2 mana Guildgate hand with Wayfinder, Anger, Unearthers and Rabblemaster. He kills the Rabblemaster, I Spawn for 5 instead of killing his Skulker, he grows it then casts Blasting Station to split it. Turn 6 Stormbreath, then turn 7 Bloodrushed Dragon over the Squids. With Anger as a backup, I was always confident. 3/0.

4) Control. I take a needlessly risky hand of Assault, Nemesis and Prowess, but draw good stuff. He just drops defenders, and I Mycoloth an Arsonist when he taps out that he can't deal with. I eventually Prowess it when he next taps out to make a 9/9 trampler and attack with a Nemesis too, which dies, but I draw 5 cards and leave him with just a Talrand. I Assault it next turn, no counter, so I Prowess a second time and kill him. 4/0.

5) Rematch! Battledriver, Mycoloth and 2 x Spider hand. No sac fodder or graveyard fillers, so risky, but I know he's slow so will chance drawing into them. Luckilly he gets mana screwed. T3 Arsonist. T4 Battledriver. T5 Battledriver(!). It takes me until T8 to draw a 5th land, but Hellsparks and Wayfinders do me proud. T8 Mycoloth, T9 Spiders = Carnage! 5/0.

6) Goblins. Arsonist is a good card here, but double Hellsparks less so if I need defence. T1 Quest for the Goblin Lord gives me worries. Thankfully he took it due to a Rabblemaster and is punished by missing two land drops. I try to race with Hellsparks, which actually take 12 life off him, but my 5th land takes FOREVER and I need to Spawn or I die. He taps out and throws everything in to take me to 2 life with just a Guttersnipe blocker and 8 life. I have just an Arsonist, he declines to block (maybe anticipating a Spawn?), WRECKING OGRE FOR 8! No Spawn needed! 6/0.

7) Auras. Mycoloth, Assault, Rabblemaster in hand, 1st draw Stormbreath. Feeling good! He Assaults my Rabblemaster, and I Stormbreath instead of T5 Mycoloth in case he Shocks my single Goblin token pre-Devour. He enchants a Gnarlid, making it a 5/5, but rather than kill it, I Bloodrush Stormbreath to deal exact fatal damage at 14 on T6. 7/0.

8) Rematch! I manage to T3 Nemesis off a T2 Wayfinder. He double Gnarlids, but I decide to race instead of using the Nemesis to block posible enchants. He loses a Gnarlid in combat, then eventually kills the Nemesis next turn via Titanic Growth. Rabblemaster T5, which is Assaulted, Stormbreath T6, which is Banefired, however he now has a lone Gnarlid blocker which can't survive a double Unearth and weenie attack. 8/0.

9) Weenie w/ pump spells. 2 x land, 2 x Wayfinders, Hellspark, Assault and Prowess. We trade early blows, I have two Wrecking Ogres but Prowess T5 instead as he has two Squadron Hawks for my two Wayfinder attackers, and I don't want to waste it if he decides to trade. T6 I Mycoloth an Arsonist to kill an Akrasan Squire, but leave the Wayfinders as I fear Reprisal and want Ogre vehicles as he's on exactly 8 life. He chumps the Mycoloth, but lets the Wayfinders though as he wants to save his Hawks as I'm on a 2 clock. Bloodrush - victory! 9/0.

10) Mill. Excellent hand. 3 lands (2 Shardlands) Wayfinder, Spiders and a Nemesis! He T1s a Crab, T2 landfall mills me, then plays a Tome Scour on me. Oh dear! He doesn't adapt his strategy despite a Spawn and Unearthers hitting my yard. T3 Nemesis, T4 Monstrous when he declines to chump with the Crab for 10 damage. Realising his error, he holds back blockers next turn (including 2 Triton Shorestalkers). I have two Wrecking Ogres, but T5 Prowess creates a 13/13 trampler, plus a Wayfinder attacking, and it's game on T5! 10/0!

Conclusion: The 5 mana spot is quite crowded, and if you lose your early beats, you can be in trouble. Waiting to get there can be pretty rough at times. When you do though, you can often finish them pretty quickly, and the Thrinax would obviously help you get there a lot safer. This has made me realise that the 5 mana hump is an issue though, but the sheer threat density when you get there is amazing. The Thrinax is a legit change I feel, but Prowess and Wrecking were responsible for 6/10 of my victories, with the Ogre an astonishing 4 of them (though I did draw it early in every game weirdly enough, and hardly saw Anger of the Gods which is the same rarity...)

Personally I'd remove the Nemesis if pushed. It's a great card, but trading a creature for a creature is fair, especially as both are ideally T3/T4 drops and serve as similar early roadblocks for the opponent. You lose some aggro and Prowess combo potential but trade that for defence, Mycoloth and Wrecking Ogre potential, so it's a good trade. Possibly even an optimal one.

The main issue with such a swap though is it reduces your Anger of the Gods equity, One great aspect of the Nemesis is you can wipe then throw in, whereas the Thrinax won't even split in response. My card choices in my decks are usually pretty layered and purposely chosen for synergy reasons rather than mainly considered for curve and such, so substituting anything can have a mild to serious knock-on effect on the effectiveness of the rest of the deck.

Still, the Thrinax is definitely something to consider I feel. I don't think I'm missing out on Shadowborn though.

I said your curve was too high and that Thrinax was the answer back when you originally posted the deck. I still think it's true and I still think the Hunter's Prowess and Wrecking Ogres aren't necessary and I like Yondar's changes a lot. Still, it's nice to see Stevo building a goodstuff deck instead of not playing mythics because reasons.

On another note, I recorded two games against knargnar last night and reading this thread just made me realize he was playing a version of this deck. Shadowborn Demon was a key card for him in one of the games, I would certainly never cut that card from a graveyard-based deck, and the Ogres/Prowess just feel too slow (he didn't resolve any so I don't know if he was playing them or not). When I played against it last night, KG's version was extremely aggressive and had me on the back foot the whole time with cheap creatures, haste, and unearth. Playing a bunch of five-mana tricks doesn't seem that great, so I think you're just getting caught in the lights of the explosive wins you're getting from them. It happens to all of us! If you were playing against real players (no offense to the randoms) then I think your mana curve would be a bigger issue because you'd be more likely to get punished for missing a land drop or two.

Anyway about the recording, I was doing a few episodes last night and the one against KG is slated to be uploaded tomorrow for anyone who wants to watch this deck face off against my Boros Aura deck. We played two games but you'll have to watch to see how it ends up!

If you read this, KG, perhaps you could let us know how your decklist differs from Stevo's posted list.

The only differences I have is an additional golgari guildgate over a forest and showborn demon and vengevine over mycolith. The 5 spot is crowded, I have 9 in that slot now. If I had to cut one, hunters prowess would go first. Thrinax would be good, but I also considered graveborn muse.

The only differences I have is an additional golgari guildgate over a forest and showborn demon and vengevine over mycolith. The 5 spot is crowded, I have 9 in that slot now. If I had to cut one, hunters prowess would go first. Thrinax would be good, but I also considered graveborn muse.

I can just see casting a Shadowborn Demon with Thrinax and Battledriver on board to create three hasty 3/1s out of nowhere and having a hasty 7/6 flier alongside of it. Thrinax is too good and creature-light control decks basically can't beat it without Anger. I'm not sure you need Muse since you're so aggressive with the Spider backup but it is a solid card. Your thoughts on the Ogre in this particular deck?

The thing is though, I'm up to about 70 games with this deck and I don't think I've ever really thought "Oh, I could really do with a Thrinax there!". Just because it's Jund doesn't mean it's optimal.

And regarding the curve being high, it isn't. It tops out at 5 mana. It's just cluttered at that spot. Prior to that it has 4 x 1 drops and 10 x 2 casts (14 if you include Viscera Draggers). I'm aware of this, but that threat density is why it works. It isn't a flaw.

Wrecking Ogre is absolutely key I feel. Prowess is great, but cuttable in a pinch, but not the Ogre. The only other cards I would feel comfortable subbing would be Nemesis as its sits in a niche between that and Mycoloth, but I feel Mycoloth is more valuable. However I don't feel it'd improve the performance radically or anything.

Play the deck and see for yourself! Again, I've got 70 games behind me. This isn't an unconsidered choice i've made. I've tested them in a dozen or more games and they've not changed the performance much for me.

It's just the point that having more three-drops than fives is generally better. Yeah you have a ton of value at five mana, but once you get there you can only cast one per turn and I can imagine some awkward spots where your hand is clogged up.

Don't get me wrong, I can tell the deck is strong and having played against it a few times now I felt the pain a bit. But I still think Thrinax deserves a spot mainly because of the mana curve but also because of how bonkers he is against control. I guess it's because I tend to play a lot of creature-light control decks and I know how ridiculously hard a resolved Thrinax is to deal with. It's possible I overvalue it because of that.

As far as playing it, there's not much in the list that I don't have elsewhere in some other builds of mine. I have a Spider deck, Battledriver deck, Mycoloth deck etc. I just don't have them all in one pile. I will need food for my channel when I get through all my own decks, though, so if I do play it then that will be the time.

I don't think you are overvaluing Thrinax at all. He is good almost everywhere, and great in certain matchups.

He is amazing against Control. He dodges a good portion of removal in the format, and a good portion of what he doesn't dodge still nets you value when he dies. He isn't a huge tempo loss when hit with Bounce either. Counterspells and Exile effects are really the only ways they have of dealing with it. 3/3 (or three 1/1 tokens) can potentially be a big threat against Control decks as well. Especially at 3 cmc.

He is actually pretty good against non-blue Aggro decks as well. A 3/3 that comes down early can be a pretty big roadblock for a lot of Aggro decks, and if they do manage to kill it, the three 1/1 tokens can buy a lot of time themselves.

He isn't quite as good against the Mid-Range and Combo matchups, but it can still be a significant early threat in those matchups, one that practically oozes value.

As Hakeem mentioned, the interaction with Battledriver and Shadowborn is pretty awesome as well.

Why not consider the apprentice? It fits in the same slot, but has the added bonus of digging for more unearth/spider spawning, fueling spawning and nemesis, vengevine....Just brain storming. I will try a few variations.

Apprentice = Necromancer's Assistant?

It's not about whether the Thrinax is a good card or not, that's not in question. It's more about its role in the deck. And in that sense, it's closest to the Nemesis than anything else. So the question is, if you really want a Thrinax, do you sub them for the Nemesis, or do you double-down on that element and add both, removing a spell instead?

Subbing a creature for a creature is one thing, but a spell for a creature changes a lot of the ways the deck interacts with itself. This started off as a good stuff pile, but ended up as mechanically complex as any of my decks and changing cards that are not like for like impacts a lot of other elements.

I don't think Necromancer's Assistant is needed. This isn't a self-mill deck, and the Wayfinders and Unearthers are sufficient for its limited graveyard needs, while offering much more value.

I don't see an overly tremendous degree of mechanical complexity here, no more than any other deck I've played with a graveyard subtheme. It's just an aggressive goodstuff deck (with too many five-drops).

Of course that's what you think. That's because you haven't played it!