@ Hakeem - So I've been wondering how testing was going (or if you have had a chance)?

After my own testing, I still have to say that Ordeal of Heliod is a must card and just a couple Asha's Favor are much better when Ordeal is in the deck.

You said:




Nimbus Wings gives Truefire Paladin a butt (Ordeal of Heliod) and gives it evasion (Asha's Favor). Actually it does for any x/2. The two together are generally a 5/5 first strike vigilant flyer in this deck (T3 on the play w/ Satyr Hoplite and have netted 8 dmg if there wasn't a response). On the heroic, you've got bounce and sac to worry about but you gain the line to race damage threats instead of respond to them (and in some cases, your other creatures can race too).

Now it may be that having Mentor in here is also correct. I'm just not sure how that fits (maybe Titan and something?). I will say that I'm finding targets to spread stuff around and/or creating threats that are tougher to answer.

elk

I haven't had a chance to play this lately. I played a few games with Hawk, which was just okay, and a few games with Paladin, which was better. I'm hoping to get around to it soon.

Well then hopefully this input is helpful beta testing for your youtube series.

I tested tonight:

-1 Inferno Titan
-1 Banisher Priest
+2 Mentor of the Meek

Because of every X/2 being a potential Baneslayer now, Mentor gets stronger for becoming another target. The deck is extremely hard pressed to take advantage of Mentor since the mana is always in use but it is at least another choice the deck can make (more choices is more flexibility but can lead to more pilot error).

I've been choosing to use Banisher in a more aggressive function and I'm using Gods Willing more aggressively since the deck can create a few mid sized threats. Having said that, I'm generally not thrilled with the 2nd copy of Banisher when it shows up. So I'm fine with giving one up to get a card that can dig the other 2 out. I'm also fine with Inferno sitting in the sideboard.


elk

So to keep flogging the horse here..... I think the change made here is strong and worth while. In reality it's just -1 Titan and -1 Priest for the +2 Asha's Favor from the very original build (pre-DLC). Revamped here just to keep it current



Based on your comment



I did some comparison homework to the current U/W Heroic decks running in Standard right now and the number of buffs I've got listed to targets listed here is about average. Also, Ordeal of Heliod and Hero of Iroas are being run main deck in every variation I've found so far. Now quantities of Heloid vary based on having a tutor in Heliod's Pilgrim but average has been 1-2 main deck and 3-4 including side board (and of course Ordeal of Thassa being the more predominant Aura). Regardless, I'm quite sure it's the interaction of the Ordeals w/ Heroic triggers that is making it strong enough to be main deck competitive in Standard right now. If we consider that alone, it should be quite strong in our limited pool and more than enough reason for you to edit it back into the deck.

Granted the U/W has tutor effects to grab flying auras or unblockable auras where we don't (which is why they are running only single copies of either). Again this is why I think Asha's Favor is a must. It's the 6th copy of flying in the deck (with some additional upsides depending on who you put it on) and we need the quantities since we can't tutor. I've relented on Mentor as it's given into lines where we draw the additional cards or replacement gas in games we need (especially where the deck has been blown out due to removal/control).

Thoughts?


elk

elk, how do you feel about Coordinated Assault? I know the card is broken, but could Ordeal go back into those slots to allow me to keep the higher creature count? You've been playing the deck and I haven't so let me know.

I also think Armored Ascension is potentially better than Asha's Favor, I really didn't like the card. Ascension does much the same thing but with a way bigger upside. Thoughts here?

I suggested Ascension 2 pages back:



I'll run some more tests with it but I will say that Asha's Favor can be on curve with a Hoplite and Ordeal to race burn. With a Hero of Iroas in play, it does play out easier on turns 3 & 4 w/ Ordeals and other Heroic triggers (again giving the chance to get out of burn ranges). I'm assuming though if you had enough plains on the board, that could offset though (the consistency of mana color could be deciding factor).

Coordinated Assault is; as you say, broken. It's just a great response card, pumps multiple heroics and can just win games. For S&G's, I'll give this a cut and spin some more creatures to see how it plays. I'm assuming I should be looking at Sigiled Paladin?

As you said before, maybe your sample size wasn't right before looking at the drawing board? I will say that with the amount of testing I've been doing lately, having bodies to target hasn't been a common concern. Ultimately I believe you're talking about the difference of 2 cards which I don't believe will sway the deck enough one way or the other.

For reference; depending on hand evaluation, I play a few ways to the board with this deck (and you vary the choices based on play/draw, the type of deck you think you're facing etc.).

1) flood the board/ give them targets - put down as many dudes as I can in the first 3-4 turns and let them pick the targets to remove (as well as waste removal). Then I dress the remaining ones.
2) race - usually great on the play but just pick a dude and make it so they can't catch up
3) shields down - pretty self explanatory - basically jump on closed mana boards
4) hold cards for specific turns - Turn 3 is great for a Hoplite/Hero and aura/triggers. Turn 4 for a Paladin. Turn 5 and 6 for 3 CMC dudes or multiple creatures with triggers/auras.
5) multiple targets - get dudes on the table and then cast several triggers/auras all in one turn (similar to #1 but the opponent didn't respond to the creatures but is responding to the auras/triggers - these tend to be Heroic board states where they are expecting to get 2 for 1 value)

If I'm approaching most games with any of these lines, I seem to get into games successfully and usually can get value out of my creatures.


I'll let you know how Ascension plays out (I'll adjust land counts 11 plains, 9 mountains) as well as mess with creature counts and report back later.

elk

I know you suggested that but I wasn't completely on board. Now that you've presented solid data that the creature:spell ratio is fine, I returned to Ascension vs. Favor.

Sigiled Paladin is a card that fits well here, but I hate not being able to curve Hoplite into it because mana. I really dislike the cost so if we could replace it then I'd be on board.

I think the problem with this conversation is that you're currently playing the deck and I am not. I really need to get some solid testing in.....

I am not so sure how well this actually compares to the U/W Heroic decks that have been running around standard though. At least outside of the fact that it is a heroic deck.

Sure, we may be on the same plan here (repeatedly activating heroic), but sadly, the threats available in DotP just don't match up with what is currently in standard. Satyr Hoplite just doesn't provide the resiliency that many of the other heroic creatures they current run do. Satyr Hoplite isn't bad by any means, but when compared to cards like Seeker of the Way, Battlewise Hoplite, Favored Hoplite, Battlefield Thaumaturge and Fabled Hero (not to mention stuff out of the board like Phalanx Leader and Lagonna-Band Trailblazer) they just don't match up.

Not saying the deck can't compete, because it certainly can. Just saying that it is difficult to try and compare the deck to U/W Heroic in Standard at the moment and use that as a basis for why this should be good here. A big portion of the reason these decks work is because the threats are either resilient, as is the case with Favored Hoplite, Battlefield Thaumaturge and the scry provided by Battlewise Hoplite, or otherwise just grow too quickly/beat face fast enough that you likely just lose if you don't deal with them right away, as is the case with cards like Seeker of the Way and Phalanx Leader.

This is a Heroic/Aura deck that happens to have access to cards that are being used; main deck, in standard rotation right now. That in itself speaks to the strength of the cards and their interaction. That's all that should be taken from the comparison.

Now if we had access to even a small handful of the additional cards you referred to, I'm sure builds in our limited pool would follow suit. Since we don't, we need to stick with the strongest interactions we have. Considering that Hakeem had removed Ordeal of Heliod from the build, I was trying to highlight reasons for it's return by giving an example of it being used in a highly competitive format in conjunction with another card we have access to - Hero of Iroas (which helps validate it's strength in our pool and in this deck).

In fact, if you look at our card pool; all the cards that could cross over to the U/W Heroic deck, are in this build (Gods Willing, Hero of Iroas and Ordeal of Heliod). We just don't have access to any of the other options they do (or I'd bet they'd be in the deck then).

elk

@Hakeem - so the Armored Ascension vs. Asha's Favor eh?

I've taken this time to test it and my findings are: I like and dislike both of them

This deck makes 3/4, 4/4, 4/5 and 5/5 really easy all day every day. Asha's Favor just fixes all the little threats you make (Since the effects pop up throughout the build, it feels like the deck theme was first strike, vigilance and flying - which I really enjoyed). Favor; at it's minimum, gave every target vigilance so I was usually able to beat down while still protecting my life total. It also worked much better in the mana curve. Having said that, its value diminished without creatures or enchantments that helped it out. Giving vigilance to Baneslayer Angel is fine and giving first strike to Truefire Paladin is more mana efficient but still feels underwhelming (and in the 2nd case didn't help it's toughness so all removal was still good for the X/2 targets w/o triggers).

Armored Ascension made additional threats. You could easily make a token a threat if you need to keep spreading it around. It did grow with time making any threat stronger and/or more resilient. It was able to reduce turns and win games the turn it was played. Having said that, It was often a 4 CMC which made the rate at which I could create the threat worse and open to more 2 for 1 (generally Favor was going on a built target whereas Ascension's best value/chance to win was a new target). It did make some beastly dudes but also could be a little +1/+1 (or +2/+2 for Heroic) and make me wish I had vigilance and/or first strike to add to my 5/5, 6/6, 7/7 etc. This enchantment did have the nice upside of making Wrecking Ogre a more viable creature play.

I should have kept game counts but it felt like Favor had the better control of board state and therefore felt more consistent with wins but Ascension had the better chance of being clutch and pulling out wins.

If we use the gut feeling method; when seeing them in hand, then it was the Ascension over the Favor.

I'd rather see them both to some varying degree so maybe I'll spin 1 of each for a bit and see how frequent they come up and how often they influence the game.

Regardless, this deck is a lot of fun and quite strong. I pulled off a T2 Hero of Iroas into a T3 Ordeal of Heliod, Nimbus Wings and Coordinated Assault (in response) for 8 dmg and won two turns later with my flying 7/8. That was a thing.

elk

elk, just as a theory-craft I went back to my original build before I added the Hoplites and Coordinated Assault. I used to run Trained Caracal because the lifelink would help me race and because I was running more Plains than Mountains due to Armored Ascension (which I ran at the time).

I got to thinking about it because you seem to believe so strongly in Ordeal of Heliod, so I think I'm going to go back to the more white-heavy list with the lifegain subtheme. This allows me to curve Caracal into Paladin and swing with a 2/2 lifelink in addition to being able to enchant it on the second turn. I'm also going to run a miser copy of Armored Ascension because the card is powerful and I can skew back farther into Plains if I cut the early red spells.

The Caracal isn't as explosive as the Hoplite, but I think this deck was never meant to be explosive anyway but rather just land a huge threat and protect it. I remember liking him in the very early build because getting him to 4/4 lifelink then gaining 10 with an Ordeal was pretty tough for most decks to overcome.

Check this out and tell me what you think, although I should probably change the name back to Boros Auras (which was my initial concept):

I'll spin it to see how things go but I have to say I'm quite partial to how the deck was running. The 10-30hp the Ordeals could trigger was usually enough to offset most races (and generally easy enough to plan for/ trigger) so it may be a tough trade from the Hoplite to Caracal.


I'll let ya know!

elk

I appreciate the testing help, I'll certainly credit you when this finally goes live on my channel.

Based on tonight's run, I'd stick with Satyr Hoplite and Coordinated Assault. They do more work and benefit the deck more than Trained Caracal and Sigiled Paladin.

Caracal is a slow card to grow from a 1/1 especially without a heroic trigger. That resulted in additional turns where it was dressed up but still subject to removal (they could still reach it most of the time and now had the chance to gain additional value). I found myself ignoring it as a target (unless I hit an ascension) and using it as fodder. It also felt really bad when it was bounced back to my hand and tended to be a bad draw late game. No comparison with a Hoplite in this deck.

Even with the mana shift, the cost of paladin was sometimes an issue for a turn 2 play and prohibitive if you wanted to cast multiple cards in a turn or leave mana open. The exalted trigger wasn't overly useful since most of the bodies you create are already larger than the ones your opponent can curve (so the extra point or two of damage didn't seem to be changing the clock). That and once you've dressed up 2 or 3 guys, you want to be attacking with all/most of them so the triggers were predominately in the first couple turns only (or in rebuild when your board popped). First strike is always strong but as I eluded to in my Favor vs. Ascension post, I'd rather have an aura to apply it to any target versus keeping it on this one.

I'm still personally on the fence about a 3rd copy of Banisher Priest. I didn't mind seeing 1 and in some cases 2 but the game was already going badly if I was happy to see the 3rd. This deck is the beat down so the priest was best used as tempo versus removal of concerns. It isn't great when it's your only option for auras (although it's a good idea to 'fatten' it so it's less likely to be removed) and it feels terrible playing it without a target. It seems like you spend a lot of effort to protect it and very seldomly use it for offense so again, if it wasn't a tempo play, it was usually not the right play. Since you don't seem keen on another aura/trigger here, maybe this is where Titan gets back in? Just a thought.

Based on the list you have right now:

-4 Trained Caracal
-3 Sigiled Paladin
+4 Satyr Hoplite
+3 Coordinated Assault

11 Plains
9 Mountains

elk

Which Boros build did you want me to test out, Hakeem? The one on this page (I can't believe we've gone to Caracal over Hoplite, and ditched the coordinated assaults)?? yikes.

that game winning titan is gone too? Are we playing armored ascension as a win-con here? Sigil paladin feels weird too.

Anyway, I'll test tonite.

omg., God's Willing is gone too?? What's happened to this deck? This was one of my favourite most consistent decks (not like Golgari Spawn or Selesnya Aggro but close). It is by far the best non-premium deck I've found. I've played well over 100 matches with it.

I'll try this new build and let you know. I can't believe Coordinated Assault and God's Willing and the superior 1-drop Hoplite are all out. Those Assaults shoudl be considered removal (essential) and God's Willing with 6 mana and Wrecking Ogre is a win-con

edit: man, getting a potential shout-out from our local celebrity would be really fun too
how the tables have turned on me, I remember more than 10 years ago when I used to shout out my awesome playtest buddy in my articles for InQuest. Now i'm just a nobody


edit2: On Elk's last post. I totally agree with his suggested changes (but I haven't tested Hakeem's new build yet). I disagree about scrapping the 3rd Banisher Priest. That card causes rage-quits and can win games. It's super important. It combos with God's Willing nicely cuz Priest is a huge target

I didn't cut Gods Willing.

I am stupid.

I agree w/ you that Priest is a strong interaction with your opponent and normally if it's in a deck list, it should be a maxed out. You mentioned that it can win games and I personally think this is often related to the tempo aspect of what I was saying above (get out the way cause here I come!) but in this deck, you want to be drawing more targets or auras/triggers for those targets. Priest just doesn't fit those options well. It's not to say that I haven't had a 3/4 (or better) priest beating down but it often doesn't feel safe to use as offense and I generally don't want to be loading it up (man does it feel bad when you've got 1 or 2 auras on it and it gets removed. Now they've got a 2 or even 3 for 0 since they got a card back. Not to mention that the card they get back could be an issue card). Something I also found is that if you are playing aggressively with the Priest, you should also be playing more aggressively with the Gods Willing. This means swinging through their board or even end step growth and setting up draws etc (you can easily change your turn clock with this card). These sorts of lines can leave less 'protection' available for the priest especially if your opponent is somehow able to stabilize after taking these aggressive lines (basically this comes from miscalculations/misjudgement and sometimes they get an uber top deck )

I mentioned before; after relenting on the Mentor of the Meek, that I'd rather have 2 copies of Priest and draw into them than have 3 and be stuck with a poor play/ diminished card in hand.

From what I gather from your post, you're intending to take this out for some testing spins too. I'd love to hear your thoughts after a crap load of runs! Good Hunting!


elk

I like to use Priest aggressively to kill tokens or reset cards like Chasm Skulker/Rockslide Elemental so that you don't have to constantly worry about what's under it. If you do take out a big nasty, though, Gods Willing has your back. I even play Priest on empty board just to keep up the pressure or trigger Mentor, he's not just a removal spell.