I don't know.

My Abzan Seance deck runs 4xSatyr Wayfinder as it's only source of self-mill and almost never has issues finding targets for the 3xDead Reckoning and 2xTreasured Find in the deck.

Admittedly the deck also has Seance, which has the potential to double the activations of Satyr Wayfinder. That said, the deck doesn't always draw into Seance and still generally has no problems keeping the GY spells live without it.

*shrug*

I don't disagree that Monomania is a bad card, but I just want to play it on turn 4 and make my opponent discard 5 or 6 cards. And then laugh when they quit.

I'm just tired of playing with tight, trim decks that win using the usual **** that is expected in each color combo. Everybody else is using Sultai for self mill and spiders. This deck looked unique for the colors and the shenanigans it can pull off can be hilarious. It just gets old winning with the same strategies over and over again.

There's nothing wrong with using a colour combination to do something only it can really do. Better that than use it to accomplish that than something that plays exactly the same as another colour set, but with just different types of removal and bombs.

You were actually criticising Turbo-Fog decks in Bant which are a prime example of using the colour to do something unique, and praising an Bant Archaeomancer deck that was just a really common Azorius shell that had Green jammed in there, despite that being a prime example of "winning with the same strategies over and over again".

It's a good thing that people look to Sultai for self-mill or Bant for Fog - archetypes other colours can't really pull off as well, if at all - as they expand the metagame at large, which is ironically something that counters people winning with the same strategies over and over. Making a Sultai deck that just a regular Simic deck + Black or a regular Dimir deck + Green is hardly expanding possibilities.

Generally people post decks here for two reasons - a deck is very powerful, or it does something mechanically optimal that you can't do elsewhere. Spiders and Fog tick both those boxes. People can and do make decks outside these parameters, but tend not to post them as much as people don't find them as interesting.

I disagree. Up until the last couple pages of Bant, almost everyone there was posting "turbo-fog" decks, and it drove me out of that thread for a LONG time, because I figured it was super boring doing nothing for 20 turns. I tested it out the other night, and I was right. Finally people started posting decks that were not "turbo-fog" like everyone else was posting, and I got interested again. Same goes for this thread. Almost every deck I've seen here is a self mill spider spawning deck that runs better without the blue anyway. I've seen spider spawning in this thread, golgari, jund, and junk. I'm not interested in that, and I'm surprised that you would be considering I've known you to be the most unconventional deck builder here. And by unconventional, I mean that you make decks that aren't necessarily the best in its colors, but that are fun because they're unique. I think that Monomania, Species Gorger, Dinrova Horror, Chasm Skulker and Griselbrand are all really cool cards that I don't see very often and don't get used enough in any deck. Skulkamania found a way to use all those cards effectively, and be different than the usual self mill spider spawning deck that litters this thread. That's just my opinion, and I'm not going to change it, because this is how I have fun playing the game. Using good decks that aren't the same thing you see people post over and over again.

I'm not suggesting you do change your opinion, I was just highlighting what I thought was an inconsistency.

Mainly because, although these decks are popular in these threads, they aren't necessarilly what's popular in the game. I have never played against a single Fog deck, but have run into a ton of Bant Exalted builds. What people post here is usually a reaction to the metagame, not a reflection of it. People are making Fog decks here because they're unpopular online, which ironically makes them over-represented here.

There's not a lot of point posting decks that are too intuitive or too common. Not to say there isn't more design space to be explored, but just that when people find something that no other colour can do, they tend to try to exploit it as much as possible to try to craft it into the best example of that archetype they can as community as a whole.

I agree that Spider decks are played out though, both here and online, which is why I updated mine into an infinite turns build and deleted the original, where now the spiders are mainly just for defence.

Hey!

I played against a guy running a Sultai Spider deck with Hedron Crab and I really liked the idea, so I started assembling one of myself. It's very resilient and has multiple win conditions and a lot of recycling with Archaeomancer, Dead Reckoning and Rescue from the Underworld.



I'm not sure about Nemesis of Mortals as it can be blocked for ever and doesn't have any ETB. Maybe someone has a better idea? I've ran Bloodghast but it usually was just on the board doing nothing.

Rescue from the Underworld is nice to get fats from the graveyard and use the ETB effects, but it takes some setup and requires board presence so I'm also not sold on it.

As always: I'm open for tips and suggestions!:)

Nemesis of Mortal is great in my Golgari version because it's full of low-cost creatures and plays pretty aggressively in a lot of games. I'm not sure that's the case here so cutting him could potentially be right, but you still have to realize that he's not that hard to get out on T3. I'd give him some serious testing before cutting but I'd have an open mind about it.

Rescue from the Underworld is just so expensive and slow, I've played a bunch of decks with it and always went from three copies to two to one and eventually zero in all of them. I'm not a fan of the card.

I'll always recommend a singleton Elder of Laurels in any Spider deck because when you get your army online, his activated ability can one-shot the opponent on an unblocked Spider. He's also got decent stats against aggro and is great to force through damage with Pelakka Wurm.

Archaeomancer is fine, but I think four copies is pushing it. Do you always have something to get back early, or is he something you don't want to play until later? If the latter you could trim here.

I also think that non-creature spots are at a real premium in these decks so Tome Scour and Cultivate don't really do it for me. I'd rather see some Viscera Draggers or Visionaries to help you hit your land drops just by drawing cards. Speaking of card draw, Graveborn Muse is a nice engine and a creature to boot so I'd look there.

Okay so I'm going to try playing with Rescue from the Underworld again because of Craterhoof Behemoth. Here is a very rough first sketch to give you an idea of where my mind is, but I can't test it until I get the cards. The curve is ridiculously high and I know the list needs work, but I want to maximize the chances of getting an early fatty (as early as T4 is possible here). If anyone with the cards would like to test this in the meantime and let me know what works and what doesn't that would be great. I haven't worked out a manabase yet and I can't use MrP's table until I get home.

24 x lands

3 x Hedron Crab
4 x Satyr Wayfinder
4 x Necromancer's Assistant
4 x Cultivate
4 x Archaeomancer
1 x Shadowborn Demon
3 x Rescue from the Underworld
3 x Traumatic Visions
2 x Spider Spawning
3 x Pelakka Wurm
2 x Rune-Scarred Demon
1 x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 x Craterhoof Behemoth
1 x Griselbrand


Like I said, the curve is a train-wreck but this is just conceptual. Some fat is going to get trimmed in testing I just want to max out for the initial testing phase.

Thoughts?

Why Traumatic Visions? Cultivate and Satyr Wayfinder seem to be enough land fetches for my taste.

I'm not an expert, but I'd play 3x Spider Spawning + maybe 2x Dead Reckoning to get some removal.

With a curve so bad I need to hit my drops on time and they let me protect Sheoldred and Griselbrand after a Rescue. Like I said, it's all theory at this point and that's why I chose them. They could be good or bad, not sure.

I have always found bloodghast good in these types of decks as a good creature to sac with underworld. Plus it is an extra body almost guaranteed for craterhoof.

Testing eh? I think I can manage some spins (heck, with how easy it is to create decks and try them out, I'm surprised a lot of the regulars don't help out more often!!)

I do like Monk's suggestion on Bloodghast. Also, with so much grave dumping, shouldn't there be another recursion option like Treasured Find?

elk

I could test tomorrow night if you need some input on how I manage with it...

need some help figuring out how best to split the land

Well Green and Blue need to be early for play/ mana fixing and the deck speed is slow so the number of tap lands can be slightly higher. Quick ratio is 15G/11U/10B (excluding multiple color costs). Unfortunately I've got to run out for the evening so I can sit and crunch it at the moment. Hopefully by tomorrow evening I can sit down and stare at it.

elk

elk, the deck already has seven recursion cards with the Archaeomancers and Rescues. I chose Archaeomancer instead of Treasured Find because he's a body with an EtB that we can sacrifice to Rescue and he increases the chances of actually having a Rescue in hand on T5 when you need it.

My main concern with the deck is the curve, but I want to go heavy on the bombs at first just to see how reliably I can get one in there by the fifth turn. Once I figure that out and which bombs are best, I'll trim the fat and polish the curve. I think I need the maximum amount of Spawnings, though, because Craterhoof. I'm also not sure that I need counterspell protection, but untapping, putting Sheoldred or Griselbrand into play, and having a counterspell in hand would be pretty tough for most decks to beat.

Maybe I could play Undying Evil as a "counterspell" since the deck has so many EtBs? I can imagine bringing in a 'Hoof, giving him Undying, then sacrificing him to Rescue to get two triggers in a single turn. Obviously overkill, but fun as hell.

Fog is actually on my radar for this deck, as well.

The deck is not working for me Hakeem. Archeomancer + Rescue is just too damn slow. Soooo many times, I've needed to be able to cast them both in the same turn, but wasn't able to because I didn't have enough mana. Three times now, I've died a turn before I was going to win just because Rescue doesn't put it on the battlefield the same turn you cast it.

I think it's worth it to cut the blue, and add treasured find.


I added the Reclamation Sage becaused I've been getting **** over by Beastmaster Ascension, Sanguine Bond, etc, so now I'm mad.

Holy damn, that's a lot of reanimation targets. Whatever happened to putting removal in decks?

The only decent removal is Dead Reckoning, and I don't like the card much. Spending the early turns putting sh*t in your graveyard, and then stalling with Spiders until you can drop a Behemoth is the best strategy in my opinion. No need to waste turns using bad removal spells.

So this deck probably isn't very original but I just built it in game and was wondering what you guys thought of it. It's the typical self ill to get the big stuff in the grave then resurrect them deck, it just has 2 of the new mythic rares that just got added.