paladins are the 2/2 exalted first strikers?

Yes but they cost so that kinda annoys me. Strong card, though, and the exalted trigger is a nice bonus with a beefed-up flier.

Some things to consider.

Could Goblin Shortcutter be a thing? Can you play it an target one of your own creatures to trigger Heroic? If so it gives you another way to cheaply activate heroic while adding pressure to the board. Not being able to block isn't a huge deal when you plan to attack every turn anyways. Of course it helps push damage through as well so maybe it would pull double duty?

I am also a huge fan of Goblin Arsonist. Probably more so than I should be. It matches up very well against token decks (which are some of the top decks in the meta IMO). Has sort of built in 2 for 1 protection (if they nuke it in response to an Aura/trick then you often at least get to take something of theirs off the table too). Of course the longer games go, the worse it is, but if nothing else, in a lot of situations it represents 1 unblockable damage (since if you attack they either take the damage, or kill it, and take the damage).

Out of left field suggestion of Bloodcrazed Neonate. I know I know, bad, but if you can live the dream and get an Aura on it, all you have to do is get 1-2 hits in and the thing would be likely to just take games over.

i think that heroic only triggers from instants and sorceries, not abilities.

The goblins combo with the rabblemaster at least.

Ordeals are back in (at least in my version of your deck). They just are great for leaving their counters and making normal removal options worse (not to mention making the race worse for my opponent with 10hp easily obtained). I found that I've been looking at the Mentors and Banisher Priests and testing alternatives. Priest is nice for the 'just in case' removal but I'm trying to determine how often I actually need it (being the beatdown and all). Maybe all 3 aren't needed and could possibly even be removed. Mentor is just been too slow most games. If I spend time focusing on draw, I'm giving away mana that could be gaining me tempo/ reducing the clock. He begins to excel on stalled boards (which the flying in this deck tends to negate) and when they've answered all my creatures (which means they are definitely a control deck and I'm already in trouble in terms of match up). Asha's favor was underwhelming but I have to say that I'm noticing it missing. It was another cheap flying source at worst and this deck just wins when it can keep swinging. Brood Keeper has worked (and the token is basically another Truefire Paladin with Nimbus Wings) but it's spreading out the curve (and requires an Aura - this may drive the build to include the Asha's favor again which may not be the way you want to go). Maybe a singleton could be worth keeping around. Maybe keeping the Heroic foundation and more auras w/targets is a better subtheme. I'll keep testing and share my thoughts as I go (assuming you are wanting the input ).


elk

I am pretty sure you are right, but not 100% certain.

The text for Heroic says it needs to be targeted by a spell, which is why pumping a creature with Elder of Laurels for example won't activate it, because the target ability is coming from a permanent and not a spell.

All permanents are "spells" until they resolve and become permanents.

The question is, does the ETB effect trigger while the card is still considered a "spell"

I sort of doubt it does. I am sort of fuzzy on the rules behind Heroic to be honest with you. If this works though, then other creatures that function similarly should work the same, such as Timberland Guide.

I am probably wrong and this doesn't work, can't fault me for trying though lol.

No, the Shortcutter's ability only triggers once he enters the board. He is then a permanent and no longer a spell. Heroic is being targetted by a creature, not a spell.

I'm pretty sure this is how it works.

You are correct, just looked it up. That is what I get for bowing out of MTG during Theros lmao.

Well there goes that idea

So I came out here to post that after playtesting my speed version, the most effective change was adding in the Hellspark Credit to Hakeems Izzet Burn b/c based on that experience I thought it might do well which was why I threw it in the mix.

Glad to see that your playtesting and mine have basically coalesced into nearly exactly the same build - at this point there's almost no difference - that is a great sign it's close to optimized.

For reference - I tried Nimbus Wings and also Maniacal rage - Wings was a bit better overall but didn't feel like either greatly accelerated the deck.

Similarly I had to cut back on Treason b/c too many creature decks just have 1/1 blockers out while growing their mana given the overall speed of your deck here, and that isn't much to work with.

Thus, I think 1 Treason is probably best at this point based on my experience so far.

This might be genius. I will try it out tonight.

Hakeem - So after more play testing, I think Asha's Favor was underwhelming but necessary. I also think Ordeal was actually a part of what made the deck successful in the first place.

You said:





My first question would be what was the removal? Then I'm curious about how often you were able to develop a creature and what P/T they were at when removed? I'm just guessing in some cases Ordeal may have helped? The counters on your heroic (and others) can make a lot of the removal worse and in some cases; an even trade (instead of costing 2 for 1). I'm also going to go out on a limb and suggest the memories you're referring to above; about running out of cards, could relate to slower play in your hand? (Ordeal keeps your board presence around longer so you're not playing your hand as fast?) Regardless, it just helped to go back to that original idea.

I'm also going to suggest that you pitch the Mentors and trade them for a couple Asha's Favor just to keep the flying aspect. Putting evasion on most of these creatures does too much damage in this deck. It keeps the pressure up making all your finishing bombs stronger.
I suggest Mentor because it plays too slow in this deck and costs tempo in a lot of cases. This deck has much better T3 curve considerations which means cutting mentor is costing you late game draw. The deck has a lot of pressure and late game bombs already so I think it can manage without it.

I'm suggesting something like this:




elk

Let me know how it goes, elk, but I think there are too many targetting effects and not enough things to target. I think if you want to play Ordeal that Coordinated Assault has to go and I personally like assault way better. Here is where I will be testing from:



I still like Mentor because I have more creatures that trigger him and the synergy with Rabblemaster and Brimaz is just too good to pass up.

Just so you all know (if you don't), Wrecking Ogre does not trigger Heroic.

Bloodrush is a creature ability, not a spell, and you're not casting the card, but discarding it.

It doesn't trigger Heroic, but it does win the game. And it wears a Nimbus Wings pretty well if you need to hardcast it.

You haven't lived until you've Bloodrushed it onto a Baneslayer.

Wrecking Ogre is how I beat control decks mostly with that deck. They can't counter it.

I'm still hoping you might answer the questions I posed (which was: My first question would be what was the removal? Then I'm curious about how often you were able to develop a creature and what P/T they were at when removed? I'm just guessing in some cases Ordeal may have helped?)


In the grand scheme of things, this is only a suggestion of 2 cards different from your original version. -2 Mentor, +2 Asha's Favor.

In the version I'm suggesting, there are 18 valid targets normally and 2 more if you're desperate.

Coordinated Assault and Gods Willing are typically response based (or at least have multiple functions) so should be used and viewed differently than the auras. Meaning you have 9 auras (6 of which get your dudes into the air) and 7 tricks (4 of which save these investments).

Granted if you can get to a game where Mentor is online and you still have Brimaz or Rabblemaster on board, then you should already be winning. You've got several aggressive T1,T2 and T3 creature plays with options for auras and triggered affects that should be played first before this card draw set up anyway (which is why I keep considering Mentor a later play). If we're talking T3 Rabble or Brimaz followed by T4 Mentor to start your draw, then the opponent didn't have answers in hand and most likely is already losing before you started this (and I go back to you playing more aggressively to pressure out the game).

Again, I'll say in my testing of this deck; it plays 1 to 3 creatures, suits them up and beats down. If the opponent can address your creatures right away, than it's typically too late to turn it around (and you're probably up against midrange or control style decks that will have better late games than you anyway). If they can't, you win.

Having said that, I'll continue to test the change and let ya know.


elk

I understand how close it is to my original list, but I just don't think it has aged well.

The removal that has been bothering me is mostly red because they picked up Resounding Thunder as another instant-speed response and I've also seen an uptick in the play of Tribute to Hunger, which can't be protected against with Gods Willing. Another issue is the introduction of trilands which has made 4-5 color control decks more viable. Overall, losing that first creature happens more often than it used to and finding a replacement just takes too long.

I'm still open to the fact that it may have been a function of sample size, as I stated initially, but I just think I want "moar creatures" backed up by spells rather than Auras.

T-t-t-r-r-i-p-l-e post!

Just a suggestion but how about you take out your original deck before all the changes and see how it handles?


elk

Quadruple, actually, I've reported it to the mods.

I'm not going to take out the initial list because my current one is just a straight swap of Ordeals for Paladins. I'll test this one and just ask myself when I draw Paladin whether Ordeal would be better.

Rather impressive quadruple post removed.