Well, take it as you will. I'm done justifying myself to you, and if you just can't accept it, then fine.
I don't really mind having you on my back, so long as it doesn't distract you from other things.

I've been working 6 days a week and doing side projects a lot. I've been exhausted. I am keeping up with the whole thing, but not a lot has come from it as far as I can tell, just a lot of whining about doing / not doing things. Not much for voting or even FoS since the first day to really track, just people talking about characters from some anime world that have no relevance and people talking about "leashing" me, which, no one actually asked me if I would go along with it. So, for now I'm reading along and waiting to see if I'll be using my ability tonight. I would highly suggest that in all this discussion of me, you do one of the following things:

(a) If you want to "leash" my ability, start looking for scum instead of fixating on me. I can damn near guarantee that scum is using my claim as a smokescreen to keep you guys talking about me and not hunting them right now. My ability is only useful if you stop discussing me constantly.

(b) Decide I'm your target and lynch me, then you'll have a claim verified and you can use the rest of your discussion somewhat constructively. Either way, you'll get one hell of a lot farther than what I've been reading the past few days. Well, just my two cents for now.

I have work in 10 min. Gotta run.

~SE++

I'll see what I can get in before I get pulled away...



I was not advising the doctor. I was just stating where my line of thinking would be were I the doctor.
Of course, you do raise some good points about trying to lure the doc, however, it's not like anyone with that type of role would have a set target already, I would think. So, it seems a bit early to be trying to make a move like that, which, to me, lends support to SE being honest about his role. As I said, while I find his claim believable, from a role standpoint, it does not really say anything about alignment. He could be town, or scum, or stand alone (although, again, the timing leads me to lean towards town).



I'm not getting into the flavor argument, especially not after the Dante Inferno game. I'll clearly state that I know nothing about Touhou, nor have I done any research. My comment about tending to believe SE is more about how and when he claimed, along with the role itself. I just can't see how that type of claim would benefit scum.



Just to be clear, are you saying that you think Niklor is scum, and is trying to distance himself from the rest of the scum? Cause that's how I read that...


Any time town dies, it's both bad and good. It's always bad, as it gets us closer to losing, but, it also has the benefit to providing information, as death is really the only source of concrete information available.


I'll see what I can do, but, it looks like D1 is generating some actual great discussion, something I'm not used to seeing. But, on the other side, I hate typing anything that matters from the phone, so, we'll see...



This makes perfect sense to me.



I'll stand up right now and say that I'm against it. The only information that town has is around powers. Scum knows who's town and who's scum. Giving more information like that only hurts town.

And, I run out of time.

It's all well and good to say hunt scum, but that is no reason to end discussion on the major issue facing the town as of right now.

Not to mention its a perfect avenue on which to hunt scum.

Your response to my first point is actually irrelevant and misleading. Serial Killer is a role that generally should not be killed by mafia, and vigilante should not either. Implying that his ability goes to waste when he dies is just not true, the most effective use of his ability for town is to not use it, unless in a scenario where using it is the only way in which town lives.

As for my second point, yes, I spoke poorly. He should be assumed to be vigilante or a different alignment. Your statement in response gives huge red flags, as I know you are experienced enough at mafia to know you made a statement which adds nothing to the game. The only common(read: statistically significant) scenario where SE knows someone's alignment is a scenario in which he is mafia. You making that statement is like saying "anyone could be scum". It's technically true, but it's filler that disguises itself to look like content.

Vote: Niklor

I would disagree. Despite the odds of a lone serial killer hitting town instead of mafia, the mafia still run the risk of getting hit. It's a risky play to leave him alone to his own devices. It may be a risk many would take, but that is more an evaluation of individual players rather than the metagame. And yes, if you never use your power, it goes to waste when you die. I'm not implying it. I'm stating it.



Oh, I'm more questioning if you made a little slip up than making a statement that scum recognizes scum. Interesting how you ignored that key point at the end and instead started an aggressive attack based on nothing. Not enough to change my vote, but you definitely have aroused my interest.

Also, I would assume based on your username that I knew you by PK, but I could be mistaken.

Half of the day is gone and what do we have to show for it? Obviously, Squinty's claim, more information than one can typically expect from the first day of the game. We also had a discussion as to whether or not we should pay attention to flavor and a few accusations that mostly started early on and have led to little follow through from those accusations. And of course, divided opinions on the leashing of Squinty.

So, let's start declaring our suspicions. A few of us have been vocal enough that you should manage some reads of some kind.

I will just go down the list because I find it simple to organize my thoughts that way and it gives the rest of you an easy read to find how I stand at the moment.

15377
Numbers is largely neutral to me, which I do find a little strange given the large percentage of posts that he has put out compared to most of the town, but most of the posts have been more arguments over whether town should leash Squinty rather than any sort of attacks, defenses, or generally opinions of any sort on other players. I find it hard to get any sort of clear read on how a player approaches strategy. Somewhat wary, but nothing makes me suspicious.

Neosilk
Currently, rated fourth on those I find suspicious. I find his certainty regarding Squinty to be town to be irritating. He claims the timing makes it unlikely to be anything, but town. He can't see the benefit for scum claiming that early. And he comes close in my mind to inconsistency, not quite telling the doc what to do, but coming pretty close and then agreeing we shouldn't. He has brought up the fact his playstyle will be different because of how often he will be posting and otherwise has made his opinions clear on certain issues, but not on any players, other than Squinty being town. If he can't post often, there should be more effort put into those post. And I'm just downright suspicious of those who want to call out people as town this early on.

MUSKA
Either inactive or lurking hard. If we don't see some indication that he is being replaced before day's end, I would argue he is lurking and should be treated as a lurker. Right now, hard to tell, as I know it can be hard to find replacements and you often want to avoid giving town extra information as GM. Still, when someone has said nothing at all over a period of five days and no announcement has been made regarding if he is being replaced, it makes me wonder.

Hello World
At this point, I would say he is lurking. He acted rather randomly claiming it was for the sake of getting discussion going because it didn't matter to him because he was getting replaced yesterday. Same issue for MUSKA, really. If he doesn't get replaced, considered lurking. His behavior seems to fit well for someone who is going to get replaced. Doesn't seem to care what everyone else thinks. Gave some clear lines of suspicion, if sadly not clear reasons for those suspicions. Hopefully, if he is getting replaced, we get someone a little more active.

Zinger2099
Upon closer inspection, I realized I misread his post. He was saying he would be gone until Sun-Tues, not he was going to be gone Sun-Tues. This is my own fault. Still, the lack of anything beyond saying he would have his NLP active this game in that post that said he would be gone is lacking in contributions. If he had enough time to come to the site to mention he would be gone, he could have given at least some quick opinions on the points that were coming up in discussion. So, I'm calling lurker.

Popular_Pariah
Up until yesterday, was on my radar as a potential lurker. Now, of course, I find him to be second on my suspicions. He attacked me for suggesting he might have slipped up, disguising it as an attack on me contributing nothing while saying much. Obviously, given the lack of response to my response of his response etc... I don't know if he just misunderstood. But since he claims I am an experienced player, that indicates he is as well. So, I'm not holding out much belief in that it was a misunderstanding. Definitely some strange logic in that attack.

seTiny
Third on my suspicions since he has not committed to any sort of action on his so-called strong suspicions. Called out his suspicions, claimed he was waiting for responses before voting, and... The lack of action feels more like wanting to be seen as active while biding his time to make a safe move. Definitely fishy.

Confused
Currently holds fifth on my suspicions. I feel a lot of his posts have contained little. What little he has said has been more strategy driven, agreeing or disagreeing with people. Not high at all, but active lurkers are one of the biggest potential threats to the town. Someone who avoids the limelight while contributing barely anything at all. Obviously, not the strongest of my suspicions, but it does exist.

storyteller
Obviously, based on my vote, tops my suspicions. The conflicting condemnation of using flavor to determine alignment yet continuation of that logic is just bizarre. And the defense of that's how I am and I've played in many types of games just makes me even more suspicious. Perhaps no answer would satisfy me, hard to say, but I am definitely not satisfied by his justifications.

squinty_eyes
I want him to be town. That said, I find it hard to see a town vig claiming his role on the first day under joking pressure. Feels more like a scum ruse, even though the role rings true. But it's hard to see a justification for any alignment to throw all their cards on the table like that on the first day, which makes it hard to get a real read on him right now. The lack of activity following his claim until prodded is a little unusual. Despite being central to the discussion, claims he saw little worth commenting on. Of course, he would be fairly worthless as a lurker vote since he has claimed to be a killing role. I still stand that we should at least wait until tomorrow to see if there is a second night kill, supporting his claim. And on him, I stand fairly undecided.

Garren_Windspear
Definitely someone I'm calling out for lurking at this point. One of the loudest voices in the town has gone quiet these past couple of days. His last comment was fishing for more information. To me, he reads fairly town at this point. Too much in the limelight, freely and plainly fishing, and his stance on Squinty just rings true to me. Still, lurking is dangerous as we need to continue discussion among all players to get good reads on them.

Top Suspicions List
1. Storyteller
2. Popular Pariah
3. Tiny
4. Neosilk
5. Confused

People I consider lurking as of this post.
Hello World
Zinger
Confused
Garren

Add in our inactive friend MUSKA and we have far too few people saying too little.

Huzzah! Wall of text. Without rstnme or Zherog being in this game I kinda figured we wouldn't get one!

Just for the record I tend to get pretty quiet on weekends - I have parties and social events to attend I swear. As for why I haven't said much recently I got distracted by videogames and, seeing as people had starting talking a decent amount, I wouldn't be missed.

I'd do a breakdown on what I think of people but honestly it would mostly just be 'everyone is neutral'. About half the people in the game seem to be just sitting around twiddling their thumbs. I mean I understand that (day 1 is pretty much always like this) but it would still be nice.

Town: 15377, SeTiny, Squinty_Eyes
Numbers and SeTiny have been, if nothing else, playing exactly as I expected them too which is a good sign in my book. Nice to see a bit of consistency.

S_E's role seems perfectly legit to me and I can't see why he would draw that much attention to himself if he was lying about his alignment. That would just be asking to be killed.

And that's that for now.

If you think that's a wall, you should see how I can get when I'm tunneling on certain individuals.



I try to keep a close eye on those who might be lurking.

As for the excuse, the problem isn't that I think its a lie. I'm sure everyone has things to do other than this game and can be distracted or just not allowed a reasonable amount of time to play it on certain days. The problem is that how do we determine when you are honestly just busy or when you are simply using it as an excuse to avoid discussion. Lynching lurkers is not so much a strategy as it the only answer to prevent people from lurking. You just went quiet for the weekend, hardly a damning action. But some people have said little since the start of the game. How do we determine if they are scum?



A good mafia player will make the effort to appear to play the same way from game to game regardless of their alignment. It's dangerous to put too much faith in playstyle reads. Not as dangerous as trying to determine alignment by flavor, but still, I'd not personally put much faith in, "They are playing like they usually do."

On Squinty, why would he draw that much attention to himself as town? He didn't need to. Any move that draws the spotlight like that could be made by anyone of any alignment. Plus, early claims tend to get a pass as true later on when any sort of confliction regarding that claim comes up. Really, there are all sorts of risks rewards for Squinty's play. Nothing about an early claim has set his alignment in stone.

I have a perfectly good reason to make the claim on Day 1:

I do things for humor. I enjoy games, and I've been enjoying watching you guys discuss my claim. Besides, Garren asked, and I kinda figured that with a power role, perhaps shaking things up and making a claim on Day 1 would give the town some advantage with free information. But above all, I thought it was funny to answer his insane request completely honestly. I enjoyed doing it.

~SE++

So, no reads on anyone, Squinty, or just trying to lurk on by?

I should probably have expanded on that a little. They are both playing as I expected them to and how they are playing is by constantly poking people to get more out of them; Number in his aggressively focused arguments and Tiny in his scattershot "why did you say that! Tell me!" response to everything.



The fact there there is no reason to draw that much attention to himself is exactly why I threw him in town. The way I look at it is if he is scum then his claim made sure that no matter what anyone thinks they are still going to be paying a lot of attention to him and dissecting everything he says. If he was scum that was an insanely stupid move - while one mafia drawing all attention to himself *can* serve some purpose this early in the game it's effectively pointless.

Now added to that I personally believe his claim. I know the whole 'flavour/character' argument has it's flaws but for the moment I only know three peoples powers and all of them have been appropriate to their character. That stance will probably be revised once more people start dying and I get a larger data pool to work with but for now it seems legit both from a character/flavour angle and from a game balance one.

So basically I believe his power claim and I can't think of a smart reason why he would have made that claim if he were scum - so by default he has to be either town or unaligned.

Back to SE's claim...

At this point in the game, my main reasoning is what I would do in someone else's situation.
If he were mafia, I just don't see any reason for making that claim. However, to me, it does make (some) sense as town/3rd group.

So, for SE, as of now, I'm leaning town. This does not mean that I can't/won't change my mind. Just, for now, he has a town lean.

As for others (and this is going to be shorter that the posts above me...)

15377 - as usual, tough for me to call. He's making sense with many of his posts, which makes me want to believe he's on the level and scum hunting, but, with numbers, you never know. Strong neutral until I am able to try and figure out an angle.

Confused - asking questions, but not actually saying anything. Trying to get others to talk - can be scum hunting or could be active lurking. Slight scum lean

Garren_Windspear - no one's going to accuse Garren of lurking...the fishing, of course, can be town or scum. I'm leaning town here, as he seems to be scum hunting. Of course, knowing Garren, I'm like 90% sure he's the doctor (since he's always the dr...)

Hello World - hard to try and get a real read on someone that's going to be replaced soon. Not many posts, little substance, just trying to get others to talk (much like confused). Slight scum lean, a bit less, as I'm not sure how knowing that you're going to be replaced changes your style. For me, were I scum and going to be replaced, I'd be trying to be under the radar, to not get lynched before the replacement player got in...

Niklor - clearly the most active player right now. Sometimes, that makes me suspicious, as it's a great scum tactic to try and drive the game, but, I'm just not seeing that. I'm seeing scum hunting and someone who's posting their ideas openly. Strong town lean.

Popular Pariah - I agree with his flavor argument. I agree with his ideas around SE. I don't agree with his vote, as I have a totally different read on Niklor. Neutral.

seTiny - so far, every game I've played with Tiny I've been wrong. He seems to be scum hunting to me, but, if all of my instincts on him are wrong, then he's clearly scum. But, with everything, I'll say neutral now...

squinty_eyes - the only one to claim, and he's claimed everything. I think he's been in every game I've ever played, and knowing that I'll get flack for it, he's just giving the town vibe right now. To be the first to claim everything (including name) just seems like a way to risky move for scum this early. The fact that no one has jumped out saying "no, that's my name" adds weight to his argument. Town lean.

storyteller - seems to agree with me on the SE claim. That's what most of his posts have been about, at least. Town lean, but not super strong

Zinger - one post about not being here for a while, and the NLP. Hard to get any type of read there...hopefully, he'll be back soon.

MUSKA - you here? I'm torn here. If we lynch him early, we get 0 information, since he's not posted yet. But, he PM'ed Scar to say that he's still in, but still has not posted. That seems very suspicious to me. I'm not willing to waste a lynch on someone that gives us nothing...yet, but, the longer it goes before he posts, the more lurky he looks.

That's all I've got for now. I think the fact that two people have not showed up is slowing down the voting, if not the discussion. So, I'll throw down a vote for one of the active players that I think is leaning scum.

Vote: Confused

While I can't seem to make any headway on this matter, I will still point out this could be exactly what he wants if he is scum. To be determined he is town because it doesn't make any sense to a portion of the players that he would claim there as scum.


First off, are you trying to fish the fisherman, now? You're sure he's the doc since he is always the doc?

More importantly, I see a rather strange discrepancy here. You lean town as Garren seems to be scum hunting, but with 15377 you see him as neutral for seeming to scumhunt. Could you elaborate on why this is? Especially since you seem to place a lot of faith in these and other reads based on whether or not they appear to be scumhunting.


That is the general idea of what I am going for, but I would caution you to read much into it as I would argue it has been my playstyle in the past to be very vocal and very honest. Probably the only thing I haven't really done like I used to so far is bring out the mostly pointless WIFOM arguments as evidence.


At this point, hoping replacement action is being taken is the best course of action. Lynching a completely inactive player D1 just will yield us nothing.

Why would you do that Neo?! Everyones going to stab me in the face now on the off-chance it's true! Well jokes on you my power is almost useless! HA HA!



I'm pretty sure this is just a light-hearted dig at me saying he's scum (because he always is). Of the five games of mafia I've played I've been doctor three times.

Oh boy.
We seem to be getting a little too much info on powers for d1.

As for going down the list... Only a few names stand out to me right now.
Garren because he seems to be fishing (if only jokingly) at every opportunity.
Niklor obviously because he's been hounding me on the flavor matter.
S_E for the claim.

Others... not so much.
I mean, most anyone's stalking about is how/if to use S_E's powers, and it's not exactly an enlightening discussion with regards to alignment.

Not such a fan of Neosilk as of his last post due to the fact that he seems to want to associate me to him.
As far as I know, you only mentioned that S_E's claim is believable, and while you never mentioned to which degree, I assume you mean on all facets, including character, alignment, and power; I don't necessarily agree with that.

Move went well. Have not yet read the thread. Will try to catch up tonight or tomorrow.

Until this weekend only one of them had responded. Weekends are my time off and I like them to be computerless if I can help it. If I am in a mafia game and the day is ending on a Saturday, Sunday, or Monday I will make an effort to be on. Otherwise I try to enjoy my weekends.

Now that both of them have answered





Both claim they were referring to role when saying they believed Squinty, but both acknowledge the timing of the claim help make the claim seem more true. The fact both of them said similar things again has not lessened my suspicion. But we still have 5 and change days left before the day ends.

If you are waiting for me to vote I can assure you that my vote will more than likely be made on Friday as I leave work. The exception would be if someone came out and said they were scum, but that isn't going to happen. I don't tend to play to use pressure votes, nor do I vote early.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion already in progress:


Town leans:
Niklor: So far the only one I believe is town. From my experience someone this active and questioning on day one is more than likely town.

15377: To me he has a town lean. While I may not agree with him on leashing squinty, he seems to have counter points and thoughts that are beneficial to town. As of now I get a slight town vibe from him.

Scum leans:

Garren: The whole opening "Fishing" back and forth seems off. Garren states that is character doesn't have a hat. A post that is perfectly fine in the joking phase of the game. But Storyteller finger's garren saying he is casually fishing. Garren responds to storyteller asking storyteller what his name is. Storyteller then says this is blatant fishing. Garren then responds with "Wouldn't blatant fishing be 'Squinty tell me your power! Do it now!'?'

I find it weird that in a conversation that he is having with Storyteller, Garren would call out Squinty as his example. I would have expected Garren to use Storyteller in his example.

Then squinty responds to Garren's blatant fishing example with a full claim Which Garren responds with pretty good claim the doc should target Squinty N1. Neosilk echoes Garren's belief, but suggest the doc not save Squinty.

Squinty: States he did a full claim for LOLz. The conversation around the claim and Neosilk and Garren are trying to push that the early claim suggest town makes me suspect that the three of them are scum. The problem is that it also seems like too bold a move to make on day one.

Neosilk: Seems to have the same/similar thoughts to Garren. Not much else posted.

Neutral leans:

Storyteller: His part of the opening fishing conversation didn't feel as scripted (for lack of a better term). He was also quick to accept Squinty's claim. I could see him taking Neosik's spot on the scum list, but for now neutral.


Unknown leans:

Popular Pariah: Only a few posts. Seems to be taking the quiet adviser that Scarlet usually takes. I haven't been in a game which Pariah yet, so I don't know what to expect.

Confused: Very few posts. Not much said.

Zinger: Won't be active until tomorrow-ish.

MUSKA: As far as I can tell hasn't even confirmed his presence.

Hello World: Being replaced.