That is some AWESOME tech right there sir!

I'm having a tough time with the Vengevine versus Elder of Laurels debate. I've been play testing now with both and not sure which is truly the better option. Vengevine has just been great for pressure and found it has 'more play' than Elder yet in the narrow cases I have Elder, it can be a win con (I tutored Elder on a stalled board). It's tough though since the majority of cards tend to be in the bin late game (late game being where Elder shines) so unless I have Elder in hand, then it's just a token. It's generally not a card I want to target with Dead Reckoning either unless I'm in a bad spot.

I think it comes down to how much pressure/play is gained from Vengevine versus the frequency Elder actually wins the game. I've found that Vengevine is generally in play most games (in fact it's one of the only cards you can sort of count on to be in most games). So if it's averaging 4-8dmg and/or several trades a game over the number of games Elder is winning (1 in...10? 1 in 15?), than I may stick with the output per game. I may have to record some numbers to be accurate but in perception/feel, this seems about right.


elk

We could always cut a single Viscera Dragger, the deck certainly isn't short of T2 plays.

I like Elder over Vengevine, though, because as you say he's the card you would choose to tutor. Vengevine has a ton of value, no doubt, but Elder definitely deserves a spot because he does give you the option to just win on certain boards.

What the hell, let's just cut a Dragger and play both!

I would cut just about anything over Elder.

Cutting the Dragger is the right call. There are too many in my hand, too often.

Final decklist here.

I think I'll revisit my Boros Heroic deck next, it's been too long.

I just got done getting 28 wins with your boros heroic and decided to take a break. I think it's the best deck that doesn't need premiums.

Cutting the dragger scares me since I've pulled off a haste surprise win once or twice, but i'll try it

Yeah I wont be cutting the dragger for vengevine as I seriously love its ability to put itself in the graveyard which is really important here. I want to work in vengevine but I don't know how I feel about putting him in that spot.

What about cutting a Necromancer's Assistant? It's still a graveyard-filling slot but the Assistant doesn't replace itself. I personally think that Dragger is a better cut, though, because Assistant is three-power for three-mana and is great at the beatdown game where necessary.

Vengevine should be in here and cutting a four-mana card makes more sense than a three-. You could cut a Visionary, I suppose, but the two-drop body is too important against aggro IMO.

Elder was a tutor for a mirror match (well Spider Spawning anyway) and it may be that it's only purpose (besides win more) is in those stalled boards. The question is, how often does the board stall (I refer to my 1 in X above)? In my testing, it's only been in mirrors and in a few cases tokens (this deck has lost to fast aggro or nut draws but not much else). Tokens can get wider faster (and play win conditions sooner) but if this deck can get to a spider spawning in those matches, then they don't generally get the chance to stall (and the times tokens did stall, it was because I had to play cards earlier than normal just to stabilize). What other cases have folks had stalled boards with this deck? Maybe looking at those stalled cases and their frequency helps justify it's need? What other cases have folks used/tutored Elder as the win condition? How often does that come up?

We're also talking about being at 7+ mana for Elder to be affective and most likely have a spider spawning triggered to give it the win condition (and this deck doesn't need spider spawning every game to win). If you're getting repeated value out of Elder in games, than keep it. If it's frequency is 'rare' than I'm assuming you can live without it. In my personal opinion, the card just keeps getting narrower every time I think about it. One last point is that it was a 'cut' before to slot in Mycoloth. If you could cut it then and not miss it, how much will you miss it if it didn't come back (or as I'm eluding to, how much are you actually gaining)? Furthermore, you didn't cut Vengevine for Mycoloth which would have had excellent synergy with Elder. I would assume then that you found Vine more valuable in testing over the Elder. Why now would you consider Elder > Vine?

If you're still willing to keep Elder and debate it's importance than I'd suggest using all the testers you have at the moment. Ask them to keep track of how many times Elder wins the game and how many times the game stalls (assuming that it's best use is a stalled board). For the sake of comparison, have them do the same for the cut card (I'm guessing Vengevine is still a consideration?) So if it's Vine, then ask for them to determine how much damage/trades it contributes and how many games it shows up in. I'm assuming if you can get 2 or 3 additional people to play 10-20 games each, you'd have enough reasonable input to make a decision from there (although in my own personal library of decks, Vengevine will be in play and Elder is getting cut.)

Oh and I think cutting a Viscera Dragger in it's place is a mistake. Those cards are workhorses and just do way too much for this deck.

elk



bullet form for those who don't like to read or are willing to test what I was talking about for Hakeem:

Elder of Laurels testing:

How many games has Elder won?
How many times did you tutor Elder?
How many games did this deck stall?
What decks did it stall against?
How many times was Elder the answer to the stalled board?

Cut card (Vengevine?) testing:

How many games did Vine come into play?
How much damage did Vine average per game?
How many times did Vine trade or win attacks/blocks?
How many times did Vine recur in a game?

oh boy! I can do this testing for sure. Vengevine does more than I thought it would in this deck.

So I'll use the current version that includes both Elder and Vine, with a cut Dragger

You could cut a Visionary if you think Draggers do more but I like the 1/1s to stall aggro and three Draggers seems to be enough.

1) Maniacal Rage now being part of the pool definitely means any Boros Aura deck would benefit from a second look.
2) The Boros thread seems to have vanished... It can still be found via links, but I can't find it as a topic in the sub-forum.

I also took the 'cut Dragger' approach and took it for a spin.

I didn't record them as specific game accounts but took some notes on Elder of Laurels so hopefully it helps.

I hit Elder 4 times in 10 games! That must be a fluke to have/draw a 1 of that many times. Then didn't hit it at all for the next 10 (no hand draws anyway). So maybe there's the balance? Still seems high?
2 games it was a dead card in hand to other better/curved plays
1 game it was a panic play to the board due to aggro speed (followed by removal).
2 games it was a winner
1 winner was a stall

2 won games - versus mirror and versus tokens. Token deck should have won though but made poor plays (or had a backwards hand/draw).

I did tutor the Elder for the mirror again (stalled game) and pushed through a Pelakka Wurm this time. They had enough to trade but it would have left them with nothing to stop the next turn so they let it through.

14 out of 20 wins total (for the deck) - there were 2 games I think I could have won - one missed click game (human error...err fail is more like it) and one I took a poor line and then made some poor choices so definite pilot error. There was the 1 game I felt the opponent should have won as well.
4 out of 20 draws for Elder (which seems really high for a 1 of in a self milling deck. I'm really curious to see if others had similar numbers for times drawn/in hand)
2 wins from Elder
1 tutor for Elder

The other aspect is did I notice Viscera Dragger missing? I think the answer is no. There were games I wish I had hit 1 more for draw/cycle or using up my mana but I was usually in good shape already and just wanted to push to the win. It just remains to be seen if losing that push can cost tempo (or a game) at any point. There's also the 2 games where Elder was a dead draw. Having the multiple options Dragger gives in those cases would have been nice to fuel the lines I was taking.

elk

Ok, so I took you up on the testing request and here are my results...

12 games played. Went 10-2.

Elder won TWO games
Deck stalled three times
Stalls against mono white and conflux
Elder answered the stalled board TWICE

Vengevine got played TWICE
avg damage per game is 6
Vengevine either traded or won an attack/block twice


So Vengevine didn't feel that great but Elder felt good when I needed it. I tried to tutor it once but couldn't decide between that and something else and timed out and got a spider spawning, dammit.

We're using Elder instead of Beastmaster because it's a creature, yes?

I can't remember what we cut for Vengevine (was it a Dragger?), but we should put it back maybe.

There's so much going on with this deck, so many solutions. I'm starting to tutor Dead Reckoning sometimes now to solve the board. I don't use the spiders often. They are a fallback plan.

I love playing against mill decks.

Yeah, Elder is better than Beastmaster here because he's a creature card.

I still think Vengevine should be in here because he's solid value on his own and getting him out for free isn't that hard to pull off. Three Draggers feels fine to me after some testing. I'm actually starting to look at them as a hardcast with upside.

I wouldn't say the Spiders are a fallback plan, but rather that the deck has two components and can switch gears between the two pretty seamlessly. Obviously just playing solid midrange threats is enough to win a lot of games but when it's not, the Spider army just makes victory inevitable in a lot of cases. Against aggro, landing an early Spawning is all you need to just brick them and this deck can do that too.

It basically has no bad matchups.

I've been hardcasting the Draggers like crazy lately and when I don't, I regret not doing it. With the Muse, they are sick.

I don't mind Vengevine, don't get me wrong. We were just testing him and I noticed his contributions were minimal (unfairly comparing it to Elder tho)

Preciesly my thoughts. While he is good here, I feel Elder is more important overall. My concern with cutting the dragger for vengvine is that you will have less chance to push deeper into your deck early with the upside to being a body later or returning from the graveyard for finishing blows. I don't want to dilute the possible early play for the extra little damage that will rarely be NEEDED.

What do you guys think about going Jund by dropping Vengevine and 3x Viscera Dragger and adding Stormbreath Dragon (i know I'll get 2bestest's support )) ), Inferno Titan and 2x Ogre Battledriver for some Spider Spawning combo? All those cards are still creatures, so they match the theme of Dead Reckoning. Satyr Wayfinder and Necromancer's Assistant seem to be enough to fill the graveyard, so the Unearth isn't that important.

So far I like this change, as it gives me another win condition in Stormbreath Dragon and Inferno Titan. Those cards are just insane on their own.

PS. Hakeem, another magnificent deck! Thanks a lot!

I love stormbreath dragon. But I wouldn't want to add a third color to this build.

Stevo just posted a JUND build that I have been REALLY enjoying. Check it out. I recommend adding the change I made to it though..

Hi, this is my take on a Golgari self mill agro. It's been quite good, basically only Séance decks give me any trouble.



I mulligan until i have 2-5 lands and a Satyr Wayfinder or a Necromancer's Assistant, or a really aggressive hand. The deck can have good aggressive starts like: Swamp, Death Cultist, Swamp Blood Ghast. I can swing without fear, because I get value from dead creatures too. Late game is good for an agro deck with Spider Spawning and Elder of Laurels.
Ulcerate, Flesh to Dust, Suffer the past and Reclamation Sage are there to be "tutored" with Treasure Find, if I need any of them.
Some times I splash one Charmbreaker Devils for late game fun.