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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:34 pm 
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Hmm, I don't know.. I've lost 4/4 games now. :P Seems very vulnerable to any removal at all really. Especially stuff like sphinx-bone wand or inferno titan absolutely destroys this deck, I feel. Well, not inferno titan so much, as he can be shut down with the tapping crew. I do try to cloudshift any directed removal as best as I can, one can't cloudshift forever. Though, I didn't really get any good draws. The only thing I dislike with magic is the RNG..


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:02 pm 
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I played a few games with your Gorger deck and removal is a huge issue on both sides of play. The only game I won was a game that stalled until I eventually won by drawing Time Warp as the second to last card after tapping most of his creatures down.

Maybe adding a few Mold Shamblers and tossing a Lynx and Pestermite out would help. I realize that Mold Shambler can't benefit from the Cloudshift, but I cant really think of any other removal that works well with the theme. If we are just trying to add 1 for 1 removal then Angelic Edict would be my recomendation. I also feel like finding more than one way to make the giant chasm skulkers evasive would lead to finishing faster. Any ideas?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:15 pm 
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I've played a few more games with the deck and it's been okay but not great by any stretch. I think I got caught up in the stall value of Frost Lynx and Pestermite when I should have gotten caught up in fact that they allow you to force through a ton of damage instead. Stalling with repeatable tap effects is okay, but the longer the game goes the more chance that its weaknesses show and the deck does have a weakness to opposing permanents. I think an aggressive deck in these colors could top out at Gorger and Baneslayer.

I think the way to go with the deck is to reinstate Brimaz and Cloudfin Raptor and focus on using the tap effects as ways to push through damage and win the game that way. It's possible that the real deck here is just Azorius with evasion and disruption, though.

If you want to stick with the combo theme, then I think Planar Cleansing to reset and Kozilek to reshuffle are necessary.

It's late and I have work early in the morning, I'll think about this tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:41 am 
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i think cutting green is the way to go. It just doesnt add enough value and takes away from consistency if you are not going the combo route. And the combo version looks like it would fair better in 4 player games. And no Gods willing?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:46 pm 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
This conversation has been good and I'm excited to try playing a version of this deck. I got home an hour ago and have been deliberating in the deck editor for the whole time, arriving here:

[manapie 90 w u -b -r g][/manapie]

Bant Exalted

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (28 :creature: , 8 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Akrasan Squire1/1
■■■■
Gods Willing
Cost 10 cards
■■■
Knight of the Skyward Eye2/2
■■■■
Selesnya Evangel1/2
■■■
Sigiled Paladin2/2
Cost 7 cards
■■■
Banisher Priest2/2
Brimaz, King of Oreskos3/4
■■■
Rhox War Monk3/4
Cost 6 cards
Rafiq of the Many3/3
■■■
Skymark Roc3/3
■■■■
Chorus of Might
Cost 5 cards
Baneslayer Angel5/5
■■
Battlegrace Angel4/4
■■
Hunter's Prowess
Land24 cards
■■■■
Azorius Guildgate
■■■
Seaside Citadel
■■■■
Selesnya Guildgate
■■■
Simic Guildgate
2
Forest
2
Island
10
Plains


There are only ten exalted creatures in the whole deck, so I really don't think the unblockable plan or the Prey Upon plan are going to be consistent enough overall; we will be lucky to have two exalted triggers on the stack at any given time which isn't a huge boost. The conversation about Prey Upon got me thinking about the deck's lack of removal, however, and since we're playing a white-heavy deck with Gods Willing, I decided to go the Banisher Priest route to fill that hole.

I really like Knight of the Skyward Eye because even without exalted it can threaten a lot of damage and force bad blocks; since the activated ability is so mana-intensive, I've chosen to include just three because I want to see one every game while conceding that it isn't great in multiples.

I've also decided to try the Chorus of Might plan by including two copies to supplement Hunter's Prowess as a way to force through damage. This means that I can play Selesnya Evangel in the deck so I can fall back on endless chumps instead of lifegain as a defensive tactic while also bolstering my offensive gameplan. It's also possible that I could win some games by just going wide with Saprolings.

I've also included Skymark Roc as a nice evasive creature that can potentially remove any small fliers that would aim to chump it while generally just being good with an exalted trigger or two. The ability to kill tokens is just pure upside.

Thoughts?

Hihi, this is fun. Classic Bant exalted. :D Makes me feel all giddy and righteous and human-ish. Oh how I wish Finest Hour was here.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:01 pm 
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[manapie 90 w u -b -r g][/manapie]

Bant Exalted

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (24 :creature: , 12 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Akrasan Squire1/1
■■■■
Gods Willing
Cost 3 cards
■■■
Sigiled Paladin2/2
Cost 8 cards
Brimaz, King of Oreskos3/4
■■■
Rhox War Monk3/4
■■■■
Cultivate
Cost 1 card
Rafiq of the Many3/3
Cost 11 cards
■■
Arbor Colossus6/6
Baneslayer Angel5/5
■■
Battlegrace Angel4/4
■■
Garruk's Packleader4/4
■■■■
Angelic Edict
■■
Hunter's Prowess
Cost 2 cards
■■
Terra Stomper8/8
Cost 3 cards
■■■
Pelakka Wurm7/7
Land24 cards
■■■
Azorius Guildgate
■■■
Seaside Citadel
■■■■
Selesnya Guildgate
■■■■
Simic Guildgate
4
Forest
3
Island
5
Plains


This is my take on Bant Exalted. It has ramp, draw, early exalted creatures and finishers with trample. I also played it with 4x Think Twice instead of 2x Hunter's Prowess and 2x Garruk's Packleader but I think the 2nd option fits better.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:52 am 
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Hi

This is my version of Bant Exalted.
I call it Exalted dolls

[manapie 90 w u -b -r g][/manapie]

Exalted Dolls

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (19 :creature: , 17 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Creature19 cards
■■■■
Akrasan Squire1/1
■■■
Sigiled Paladin2/2
■■
Stoneforge Mystic1/2
Brimaz, King of Oreskos3/4
■■■
Rhox War Monk3/4
Rafiq of the Many3/3
Baneslayer Angel5/5
■■
Battlegrace Angel4/4
■■
Creepy Doll1/1
Spell17 cards
■■■■
Gods Willing
■■■
Cobbled Wings
■■■■
Negate
■■
Reprisal
■■
Dissolve
■■
Avarice Amulet
■■
Obelisk of Alara
Land24 cards
■■■
Arcane Sanctum
■■■
Jungle Shrine
■■■
Seaside Citadel
3
Forest
5
Island
7
Plains


The idea of the deck is to get the amulet on the doll and pump it with exalted, or use it one another creature and protected with the gods willing, reprisal and dissolve

My record online so far is 27/11 quite good for me, but I was thinking on doing some changes. Land performance so far has been quite stable

The cards that i am not convinced are the two reprisals (maybe could be replaced with the third dissolved or safe passage )
the two obelisks ( the deck hasn't been very good against other control decks , so maybe i can make it a bit more aggro)

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Cheers

Zeke


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:54 am 
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For a deck that wants to apply pressure and attack you have too many reactive spells. I would cut negate for voyages end and would cut dissolve and reprisal for banisher priest and hunters prowess. I would also cut obelisk possibly for an angelic edict and a void snare as a catch all or if you lose your amulet.

EDIT - squadron hawk may be better than voyages end. Having extra bodies for your equipment is nice and flying can be super relevant when you are only attacking with one creature

So to summarise

- 4 negate
- 2 reprisal
- 2 dissolve
- 2 obelisk of alarm

+ 4 squadron hawk
+ 3 banisher priest
+ 1 hunter's prowess
+ 1 angelic edict
+ 1 void snare


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:29 pm 
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Kjersleif wrote:
Hakeem928 wrote:
This conversation has been good and I'm excited to try playing a version of this deck. I got home an hour ago and have been deliberating in the deck editor for the whole time, arriving here:

[manapie 90 w u -b -r g][/manapie]

Bant Exalted

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (28 :creature: , 8 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Akrasan Squire1/1
■■■■
Gods Willing
Cost 10 cards
■■■
Knight of the Skyward Eye2/2
■■■■
Selesnya Evangel1/2
■■■
Sigiled Paladin2/2
Cost 7 cards
■■■
Banisher Priest2/2
Brimaz, King of Oreskos3/4
■■■
Rhox War Monk3/4
Cost 6 cards
Rafiq of the Many3/3
■■■
Skymark Roc3/3
■■■■
Chorus of Might
Cost 5 cards
Baneslayer Angel5/5
■■
Battlegrace Angel4/4
■■
Hunter's Prowess
Land24 cards
■■■■
Azorius Guildgate
■■■
Seaside Citadel
■■■■
Selesnya Guildgate
■■■
Simic Guildgate
2
Forest
2
Island
10
Plains


There are only ten exalted creatures in the whole deck, so I really don't think the unblockable plan or the Prey Upon plan are going to be consistent enough overall; we will be lucky to have two exalted triggers on the stack at any given time which isn't a huge boost. The conversation about Prey Upon got me thinking about the deck's lack of removal, however, and since we're playing a white-heavy deck with Gods Willing, I decided to go the Banisher Priest route to fill that hole.

I really like Knight of the Skyward Eye because even without exalted it can threaten a lot of damage and force bad blocks; since the activated ability is so mana-intensive, I've chosen to include just three because I want to see one every game while conceding that it isn't great in multiples.

I've also decided to try the Chorus of Might plan by including two copies to supplement Hunter's Prowess as a way to force through damage. This means that I can play Selesnya Evangel in the deck so I can fall back on endless chumps instead of lifegain as a defensive tactic while also bolstering my offensive gameplan. It's also possible that I could win some games by just going wide with Saprolings.

I've also included Skymark Roc as a nice evasive creature that can potentially remove any small fliers that would aim to chump it while generally just being good with an exalted trigger or two. The ability to kill tokens is just pure upside.

Thoughts?

Hihi, this is fun. Classic Bant exalted. :D Makes me feel all giddy and righteous and human-ish. Oh how I wish Finest Hour was here.

I agree, this deck is unique and a lot of fun to play. Skymark Roc has been an all-star for me. I'm on a 6 game winstreak right now.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:52 am 
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As I posted an early version of this elsewhere, I thought I'd post my final Fog build here.

[manapie 90 w u -b -r g][/manapie]

Fog of War

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (5 :creature: , 34 :instant: , 21 :land:)

Cost 4 cards
■■■■
Fog
Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Courier's Capsule
■■■■
Think Twice
Cost 12 cards
■■■■
Cultivate
■■■■
Hysterical Blindness
■■■■
Safe Passage
Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Archaeomancer1/2
■■■■
Inspiration
Cost 4 cards
■■
Obelisk of Alara
■■
Planar Cleansing
Cost 2 cards
■■
Sphinx-Bone Wand
Cost 1 card
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth12/12
Land21 cards
■■■
Seaside Citadel
■■■
Simic Guildgate
6
Forest
6
Island
3
Plains


Not too different from the standard Fog decks, but I haven't seen any since the DLC, and this adds a few elements I find crucial.

The main reason I didn't previously run a Fog deck was the draw quickly petered out, and if people destroyed your win-cons, you had no comeback. With the Obelisk, you get an addition win-con and via the discard mode, a way to ensure an uncounterable reshuffle by discarding Kozilek. Then on the second time around, while your Cultivates aren't too useful, and your Think Twices have exiled, the Obelisk allows draw filtering, lifegain to save Fogs, and crucially, the Courier's Capsules can be used again too.

Cultivate has an important use in land flitering and allowing you to afford all your spells, as you're constantly drawing and casting. The sooner you can afford to do both, or Archaeomancer and cast, or Wand and survive, the better shape you are.

Pre-DLC you were stuck with Ior Ruin Expeditions which were made useless second time around due to having used all your land, or Thassa's Bountys, which were too expensive and a road block first time around. Now with the Capsules, it's the first time I'm happy to use the deck without feeling like it's a archetype that didn't quite work, like Zombies or Vampires.


Last edited by Stevolutionary on Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:05 am 
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I would try Sylvan Bounty as your mana-fixer of choice because eight life could really matter against red decks that can finish via reach and ignore your Fogs. I'm also never a fan of two Wands, they're too expensive. You have a ton of draw, one should be enough.

-3 Cultivate
-1 Sphinx-Bone Wand

+4 Sylvan Bounty

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:16 am 
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You need two purely for frequency purposes. Especially if you end up blowing one up with a board wipe, as can happen.

Life is never much of an issue if you get the combo locked in unless you're against a lifeloss deck, where i'd rather have a counter to prevent things like Sanguine Bond than stalling the inevitable for a turn.

Bear in mind you'll landcycle mainly the first time around to strip land, build to a wand, and enable drawing and casting on the same turn. The actual hardcast only comes into play on the second trip around if needed, and if you've survived a graveyard reshuffle, then your counters are better than lifegain at that point to permanently stop things the fogs can't.

A possible solution is one cultivate, one visions and one bounty, but that seems a little random. I don't mind it having a bit of a weakness to one type of deck though. Every archetype has. But it performs very well against virtually all other deck types, and I don't want to lose a little performance against 95% of decks just to gain say a medium improvement against the remaining 5%.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:27 am 
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My point was that Cultivate is actively bad here and doesn't really do anything. Landcyclers are better because they do other things in the lategame. I didn't realize Visions wasn't in the deck, definitely play that first.

Have you thought about a light black splash for Suffer the Past? Seems good in a long game with a ton of mana available after a Planar Cleansing.

I don't think you need Wands at all, personally, but I've never played Fog.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:44 am 
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Wands are pretty crucial. In a long games (and these games can last up to an hour or more...) you find many people use repeated Elixirs, so Suffer is not worth the splash as it will neither mill or kill them. A wand however can very quickly eliminate someone here. I've taken over 100 life off in three turns a number of times.

Cultivate is needed so you can draw and fog in the same turn as soon as possible instead of alternating and taking damage. The sooner you can establish your engine, the safer you are.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:00 am 
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But you don't even need to start casting Fogs until your opponent represents lethal damage. Again, I haven't played Fog, but Traumatic Visions seems so much better than Cultivate everywhere except on T3. I can't see how Cultivate wins that slot, especially once you get to the reshuffle. The best you can do with Cultivate at that point is discard it to Obelisk and hope to draw an actual card.

Also, if those Wands are crucial then Visions protects them and should get the seat on that merit alone. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:10 am 
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Cultivate guarantees you the ability to resolve all three fog effects. Cultivate can ensure you cast your board wipe. Cultivate can also be used as a wand trigger on the second time around, which is more valuable than you'd think. It's something Courier's Capsule can't do. With a Wand on the board, a Cultivate is better than that card in that situation. It also strips out lands ensuring your draws are better (and you're drawing constantly, so that's important)

Lastly, saying you don't need to fog until they have lethal on board shows you haven't played it. What about non-creature damage? You let your life go down to single digits, then they finish you off with an Obelisk, or a Gutternsnipe, or a Vizkopa, or a Banefire, or a Suffer the Past, or they counter your fog, AND the second one. A single alpha strike by creatures is not the only threat.

I hate to say it, but you really should play it if you don't understand these decisions. It's a really tight and risky archetype. Much more than you'd think. You seem to be taking too simple a view of it. That's not intended to be patronising - it's just I can see why you'd take such views having not played it. The archetype works very differently in live play than you'd assume on paper, which is something I didn't really get until I playtested it extensively.


Last edited by Stevolutionary on Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:20 am 
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I get all that, I really do, which is why I suggested Sylvan Bounty to protect your life total where Fog effects can't. You said that was only 5% of the field yourself. :)

Visions can counter those spells in the lategame, too, so you don't have to worry about them.

I get that Cultivate fixes. But the cyclers fix with upside. I don't think the extra land is worth the fact that Cultivate does nothing later on. Those cyclers also trigger Wands because they are spells in the lategame so that isn't an argument for Cultivate at all. The only reason to play Cultivate over cyclers is ramp and I don't think you need it here. You have so much draw that mana consistency shouldn't be an issue.

I will build a Fog deck later and spin it for a few games, though, just to say I did.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:26 am 
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Again, you need to be able to draw and fog, or double fog, as early as possible if required. The more land you have, the quicker you can rip through your deck and be in a position of strength.

Bear in mind, only Fog is 1 mana. Passage and Blindness are 3 mana each, and Blindness is conditional. If you mana stall you can get stuck in a rut of having to fog to stay alive, then never being able to cast draw, and eventually getting overrun because you can't replenish your hand. The difference between an extra mana can seriously mean the difference between life and death, and the sooner you can get on the draw train, the better you can protect your life total, and the sooner you can cast a wand, as your fogs are not just protection, but wand ammo too.

It's all well and good finally dropping your wincon, but if you've exhausted your entire hand staying alive in order to get there, you're basically dead. The sooner you can draw and cast the wand, the better. The entire game is essentially digging for the wand.

Give it a spin though. I'd be interested to see your results. As I say, I do consider Visions a marginal call, so I don't totally discount it, but it's a case of what do you prioritise? Solidifying a position easier, but having a weaker game if it gets to a reshuffle, or having a riskier early game, but a stronger post-shuffle presence? As the early game is where I feel the deck is weakest, and the post-shuffle game the strongest (being able to Archaeomancer and wipe in the same turn for example) I prefer the former.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:06 pm 
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I posted updates to my fog build after expansion and it was pretty similar to yours. I am strongly with hakeem here. Visions was a GODSEND for my fog deck. I STRONGLY encourage you to heed is advice in using cycle effects vs cultivate.

I agree with you on the two wands though, I wanted to keep the percentages of getting the wand high in my build as well as finding another after cleansing when I ran my fogger.

I also tried archeomancer in my fogger and found I REALLY didn't need or want it here as I felt his cost was too pricey for my tastes.

I STRONGLY encourage visions though. You will be thankful to have it VERY frequently and provides the mana fixing you need on turn 2.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:33 pm 
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Maybe I'm being too hard on Visions, but Cultivate seem too valuable to me. I really think I need both. Maybe a 2/2 split and drop a land?

I genuinely do wrestle with the issue though as I said in the OP. I just feel there's so little room in the deck to make changes without compromising the engine. I really feel you need Archaeomancers too. They're an extra 4 fogs, or 4 wipes. I couldn't do without them.

To me, 12 Fogs, 12 Draw, 2 Wands, 2 Wipes and 4 Archaeomancers are essential. That gives you a grand total of 4-5 cards to play with depending on if you want 23 or 24 land. I go for;

Kozilek, as having an uncounterable shuffle is needed, plus the extra win con and draw ability is golden.
Obelisk, as it's just pure value when dropped, but two would become a roadblock I feel. It also allows an uncounterable Kozilek discard if you worry he may be stolen or exiled if cast.
3 Cultivates, for reasons described earlier. Getting a good early mana boost for fixing and drawing purposes is essential.

One thing I may do is go to 21 land and add 2 Visions and treat them as virtual lands, cycling them first time around, but it'll make my opening hands a lot less reliable. I'm dreading seeing 1 mana, 1 Visions hands, but I'll test it out.


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