I agree, adding in the Treasure finds on top of the reckonings would be overkill here in my opinion too.

Fair enough. This is certainly more centered around Spider Spawning than my Abzan Seance deck, so those extra creatures probably do make a bit more of a difference (to be able to hit spawning early for a million). My Seance deck is a bit better at the durdle game as well (having white included) so it probably works better there than it does here.

That said, I don't think you would lose out on a ton if you were to cut 2 creatures to run 2x Treasured Find (only bringing you down to 28 creatures). There are a couple creatures here that I am not completely sure about. Mycoloth and Graveborn Muse being the first ones that come to my eye.

I can't say that either of them are bad (because they certainly aren't), I just don't know if that is how I personally would take things.

I feel like Graveborn Muse is mostly going to only be drawing off itself (with only Draggers/Assistants to trigger it, and in most cases you would prefer to have Draggers/Assistants in the yard rather than on the table to fuel Spawning/Nemesis). Like I said, I can't at all say it is bad, because worst case scenario it is a Phyrexian Arena on a 3/3, and who can complain about that.

I sort of feel the same about Mycoloth. I certainly see the advantages. Allowing you to turn your self-mill/draw creatures into tangible threats and sending them into the yard to feed Spawning/Nemesis. Also allowing you to convert big casts of spawning into a huge single threat, which can be beneficial in certain matchups. That said, much like we talked about in our discussions on Bloodflow Connoisseur in my Abzan Seance deck, I think the effect may be a little too cute. Also potentially sets you up for -CA should the opponent have removal to deal with it instantly after devouring. I think in a lot of cases I would rather be casting one of the decks other bombs (Wurms/Demons) with ETB/LTB effects and having the recursions to bring them back should they get removed. I can see Mycoloth providing more value in the long run should it manage to stay on the table for awhile. I think I personally prefer the other bombs+recursion though, if they stick, they usually win the game anyways (so the added value that Mycoloth would provide is sort of moot). If they don't stick, at least you get some sort of value out of them, and they are ready and waiting for your recursion effects to kick in.

I do think that adding Dead Reckoning to your deck was the correct move though. Having access to removal can be very helpful, and it allows you to run some without cutting into your recursion spells, which, if this runs anything like my Abzan Seance deck, tends to be a good portion of the reason why the plan B effect (shifting to mid-range) works out so well when the initial plan isn't drawn (Spawning in your case, Seance in mine) or somehow gets answered.

Hakeem, you were just saying that your U,R deck was the strongest deck in the game. Do you consider spiders stronger? And if so, is this your favorite spider deck?

Xo

I don't think the Spider deck is stronger, but I do think it's more consistent overall. Izzet burn is just so fast and can kill out of nowhere on any turn, so I think it's the "better" deck because it can go underneath a lot of other strategies (like Spiders). It does tank from time-to-time, though, something that rarely happens to this deck.

In terms of win%, though, this deck is at or near the top for me. And yes, this is my favorite Spider deck. All it does is win.

Mycoloth is pretty cute and I haven't really needed or wanted him since I made the swap from Elder of Laurels. Perhaps I should switch back?

As far as Graveborn Muse is concerned, though, I think you're underestimating how powerful it is to draw an extra card every turn. It doesn't need any support to be awesome, it just wins games if it sticks.

Hakeem, so you swapped your treasured finds for deck reckonings and that's it, ya?

Yes, that is the swap he made so far and it is virtually pure profit.

Yeah and it's been great as 2best says.

When do you use unearth? For killing blow only? Seems like I need that guy in my yard for Nemesis and Spiders. I like cycling the Dagger on T2 but when the guy is wide open on T3 and I have nothing else to play, it takes all my self-control to not unearth him for an easy hit.

I don't Unearth unless it will win me the game (so basically never). He's just card draw and a way to get another body into the graveyard on-demand. The draw smooths out the mana and throwing something into the graveyard is a great way to get a T4 Nemesis of Mortals. At worst he's just another Spider token.

Not sure on the Mycoloth vs Elder of Laurels decision.

Both of them really need other cards to go over the top (stuff to devour for Mycoloth, stuff on the board for Elder), and both sort of serve the same function (converting the decks engine cards into real threats). Elder is probably better overall for this purpose, since it does the job faster and the combat trick thing means it is probably easier to slip damage through (since you can just use the ability on whatever your opponent doesn't block), it doesn't represent potential -CA either.

Mycoloth is a tiny bit better on a completely open board, represents potential CA should it be able to devour and stick, and has synergy with the other main function of the deck (sending things to the yard for Spawning/Nemesis).

Tough call honestly. I would probably go with Elder of Laurels though.

Even though I still think that Treasured Find is the correct choice. I know it drops your creature count, but I don't particularly agree with it diluting your deck. On top of the whole getting Dead Reckoning back thing, the deck runs enough Self-Mill and huge ETB creatures (Wurm, Shadowborn, Runescarred, Griselbrand, and to a lesser extent Nemesis) that the spell should pretty much always have a valid target. Be it getting CA by snatching up stuff that you have milled (usually doubly so, since ETB effects), or by bringing back those creatures should they eat removal (and again leveraging ETB effects for CA).

I mean, I can certainly see the argument against not running it. Lowering your creature count, working against Spawning/Nemesis by pulling stuff out of the yard. I just think the pros outweigh the cons. Spawning for 1 or 2 less doesn't seem like a huge loss compared to being able to loop huge ETB stuff all day. Admittedly, having to wait a turn or two longer to cast Nemesis COULD be a disadvantage against some of the faster decks in the format and I will grant that as being a good reason for not running Treasured Find.

I really think that running durdle creatures like Mycoloth/Elder actually dilutes the deck more than Treasured Find does. You have enough self mill where Treasured Find will basically always represent a threat (most of the time one of which gives a tangible benefit the minute they hit the table and even if removed, unlike those more durdle creatures). On top of that, being able to pseudo-tutor with self-mill and Treasured Find/Reckoning may often be the difference between winning and losing. Being able to pseudo-fetch up removal/lifegain/draw/tutor when you need it can make a huge difference in certain matchups. The ability to recur creatures is helpful in the control matchups as well (although these sorts of decks are already well positioned against control).

I still think in most cases I would rather be drawing a Treasured Find than something like Mycoloth/Elder when Treasured Find usually always represents creatures that are superior to them (both in terms of bodies AND value provided by ETB/LTB effects), and also provides the service of pseudo-removal protection for stuck threats, pseudo-tutor/draw when combined with self-mill, and extra copies of your removal spells when you need them. It may be a little slow, but it almost always represents a tangible threat, provides a ton of value in different scenarios, and doesn't work against the Spawning Plan enough to warrant not considering it (although it does slow down Nemesis a decent amount, which may be a good reason to skip Treasured Find).

As I said before about Graveborn Muse, I don't particularly like them here, but they are certainly a solid option. Phyrexian Arena on a 3/3 body is good in pretty much any deck you can stick it in. I am just the type of person who feels wrong using it in places where you can't abuse it as much as you possibly can lol.

Also, I hope you don't take any of my suggestions/discussion personally. Not trying to step on peoples toes here (and I realize I can sometimes come off sounding that way). I respect the people around here a lot, and to be honest, don't think I have seen any decks posted here that weren't completely solid (or at least relatively so in terms of more "brew" type stuff).

I know I am relatively new here (although I know some people probably remember me from the old WotC boards) and I am not trying to come off as "that" person. All suggestions and discussions are made purely on the basis of what could be possible within the confines of the deck. Not trying to tell anyone their ideas are wrong or bad or whatever, because that certainly isn't the case.

/Justtryingtobehelpfulandlookinglikeajerk

Spawning 1 or two less is a MASSIVE issue at critical times where this deck needs to survive long enough to get to dropping those larger bodies. The end game is ALREADY massive in this deck so adding the Treasure just seems like over-kill. Remember that they both were never in the build at the same time. The reckoning is the obvious choice over Treasured here for a number of reasons. This is a spider spawning deck. If you get to late game you're virtually NEVER going to lose ANYWAY. Getting there is the biggest concern. Those big ETB boys mean nothing if you don't have the mana available to cast them yet and/or you're not going to survive long enough to.

Reckoning allows value in the form of removal from the above big boys at 3 mana.. That is the reason the switch is superior here in my honest opinion. This deck has PLENTY of win cons without needing to worry about getting those big etb creatures back via diluting your spawning rate or your early nemesis that will often times help get you to those later rounds.

Treasured Find is a great card, but I don't feel it needs to be in this build.

Fair point, and I am admittedly a little biased in that I am used to playing a similar deck in Abzan colors, which has access to things like Wall of Omens and Lone Missionary to help carry it through the early game.

I can see your point though when trying to survive in the early game how an early Spawning/Nemesis can be the difference between surviving or not. Which makes me wonder if that spot that Mycoloth is taking up should maybe be something like Saruli Gatekeepers. Doesn't take away from your creature count, gives a nice body that most of the faster decks have trouble attacking through/removing, and could give some mise lifegain to help with those early game assaults. I could see it maybe not being worth it because the deck is only 2 colors and only runs 4 gates total. Satyrs may help to smooth that out though, especially if you have Viscera Dragger and Elvish Visionary to draw up other lands and thin out your mana (upping the chances to draw/hit gates off of Satyr).

Could help to shore up the early game potentially without going against what the deck is already good at, and isn't a COMPLETELY terrible top deck in the late game. May not be worth it with so few gates, but it may be worth testing out. *shrug*

Good points all around, but this deck is basically rock solid and locked down. Dead Reckoning has shored up the only real weakness and now the deck only loses to the RNG or some real fast aggro/burn deck that has a nut draw.

I think I may move back to Elder of Laurels over Mycoloth, though. A 2/3 on T3 is another roadblock to aggro and casting it after a resolved Spawning is just gg. Mycoloth is pretty slow and unnecessary here.

Saruli Gatekeepers isn't consistently going to get you lifegain in a deck with only 4 gates.





I think that is probably the best advice to take here. Mycoloth unfortunately hasn't ever once been useful for me in this build yet not do I truly ever feel it would be needed.

Now that I've played both, Elder is definitely better here than Mycoloth.

On another note, I'm thinking about adding Savage Lands to the manabase or going to a 10/10 split with the basics. I've had a few games now where black mana has been a minor issue and almost cost me the game.

I drew Mycloth this morning and had no idea what the heck he was supposed to do. I wasn't going to sack by Nemesis of Mortals or Necromancer's Assistant when my opponent has nothing out. I had one spider too only at that time which I only played for something to feed Mycloth.

Is Elder going back in? That's happy news.

When i hit 8 mana with this deck, I haven't once had 4 swamps to cast Grisle. I don't hit the 4th swamp until later typically. Let me know what you're doing with the mana

He was supposed to eat Spiders but if I have Spiders then I'm winning.

About the mana, I'm not worried about quad-black so much because ol' Grizzlecards is just a singleton. I was unable to play Dead Reckoning on five mana a few times, though, because I had four Forests and a Swamp. It didn't matter in the last build but now it does.

I've really had bad luck with the deck. 1-3!!

I'm having consistent trouble with getting double black, I'm not getting my graveyard cards, I'm just dropping Elvish Visionaries and Cycling Viscera Draggers into more of the same. Haven't gotten to draw a single card off Graveborn Muse bc of removal, I'm super weak vs fliers. I'm losing to garbage too like Orzhov Lifegain. Angelic Accord gave me huge fits.

I think Arbor Colossus belongs in this list. 6 power is good for Reckoning, and I feel the deck needs to stabilize sooner. I'd cut Griselbrand.. he's been a dead drop everytime for me, and there's already plenty of draw. I'm also feeling like I can't take advantage of his ability unless I drop a Pelakka Wurm first bc I'm taking too much damage early.. especially through the air.

Also.. Beastmaster Ascension.. for the win vs a stalled board state.

I sort of feel the same way about Elder of Laurels though. If you have enough Spiders out to make his activated ability threatening, then you are probably already ahead by a good portion on just the spider tokens alone.

I am sure it can certainly help you sneak wins, I just sort of feel like most of the times you are going to want to be casting/using it you are already in win-more territory. That said, outside of Gatekeepers (which as has been pointed out don't really have the Gate support to be consistent) there aren't a ton of other creature cards that would fill that spot any better. Ravagers could work, but don't really help a lot if the deck is looking to shore up the early game. Same is true of something like Specter, which could be nice for the discard, but would likely just funk up the mana and slow things down more against those fast decks.

I feel like Elder is still probably the weakest card in the deck, the problem is, there just really aren't a ton of other options to replace it.