In mono black, Viscera Dragger is irreplaceably valuable as a draw card. In mono blue, we have better draw options, and for actual bodies with unearth I would just rather run brackwater elemental. Namely, I wouldn't want to run the card . That being said, if you are running some kind of wacky dimir self mill that noone currently runs...... maybe. I don't see it though.

But again, we're comparing apples to oranges. Of course Red has better beatdown cards, and of course Blue has better draw cards. This is a card that gives you a little of both if splashing neither.

I know this deck does splash Blue, but that's separate from what we're talking about currently. Namely the card in isolation.

Well this isn't the thread to talk about the card in isolation. That's the mono black thread. In this thread, we have to discuss the fact that blue draw is a thing, the number of better aggro creatures between U and B is non-negligible, and that the card is a jack of all trades that does the job worse than your other available options. In a dimir deck, I don't see the reason to run the card. It's completely and easily replaceable. In Mono B, it's not. Not much else to say honestly.

I agree with this, but you're confusing the debate. When Hakeem brought Hellspark Elemental into the conversation, it stopped being a discussion about Dimir and became one about the card itself. You can't then come in and redefine the conversation retrospectively.

Regardless, in the original build and Hakeem's variation, it works with the Paragon, Hall and Muse - cards the Brackwater would not - so even then it's a better card when talking about this deck.

You're fudging the discussion by pointing out the obvious in an area nobody is contesting.

I didn't bring up Hellspark Elemental, fel did.

Don't get me wrong on Viscera Dragger, I think it's a great card in a lot of decks (it was a strict upgrade from Phyrexian Rager in my Spider Spawning deck). I just don't think it's good enough in my take on Dimir Aggro because we have better draw options and creatures with EtBs in a deck with Undying Evil. If I were going to slot them in here I would actually replace Pharika's Chosen, but I like the Snake because of the curve and the fact that it almost always trades up. The deck has only one dedicated removal spell so the deathtouch component of the deck is very important.

Overall I like the generic beatdown version of the deck. I tried it pre-expansion but the lack of quality two-drops made it pretty bad and I abandoned it quickly. Adding a two-power two-drop with evasion in Tidehollow Strix really helped and I'd probably not have realized it if not for the discussion around the thematic build so thanks for that.

It's too bad I can't recreate my Standard deck, though, that thing was an absolute blast. Hidden Strings was absolutely nuts and enabled starts like T1 Tormented Hero, T2 Hidden Strings untapping both my lands and ciphering onto Hero then tapping the lands again to cast Pain Seer. Then you attack with Hero, cast another copy of Strings tapping your Pain Seer and either untapping your Hero for the trigger or untapping a land to get another one-drop into play. An aggro deck that can spend up to six mana on the second turn can get out of hand quickly! The deck also had Duskmantle Seer to burn out any people who managed to stabilize. So much fun!

What I like about the Strix, and Brackwater, is that both are cards essentially bundled into one archetype (Artifacts and Unearth respectively) that do an arguably better job supporting other archetypes than they do in their own, which makes them easy to overlook. As you say, it's an amazing 2 drop. Something that fills a significant hole in Black and Blue, but people forget about that because they're too hung up on exploiting the Artifact element.

I wonder how many people never consider Battlegrace Angel simply due to the fact it has Exalted on the card and they're not building an Exalted deck, despite the value and versatility it can provide other decks?

So, here's the finished Dimir deck. I've let my head come back into the equation a little and put my heart to one side, but it's still a fun deck that keeps the theme without unduly compromising it, and adds a lot more effectiveness.



So, the theme is Black creatures, stacked with lord effects and deathtouch, continually throwing in and forcing bad trades on the opponents, or a one-sided board wipe via Hysterical Blindness. Even if they refuse to block, you just use it as a form of Fog on the counterattack. Bident of Thassa can force them into your Deathtouchers though.

Viscera Dragger essentially replaces itself (the Dragger is always cycled) as does the Specter for card advantage purposes as it takes a card, which also makes Undying Evil a tempo card if used on the Specter. Bloodghast constantly returning, with P/T boosts adds to the unequal trades, and Artful Dodge allows you to chose which creatures they can block, as well as giving an additional 8 Agent triggers and allowing your lords to attack.

This is a great aggro deck with some funny and unique elements, based on a shell originally developed my my friend FFG Raoh.

For people following the past discussion, here are the changes I've made from FFG Raoh's list (which incidentally he's now changed too on my advice);

That looks good but I think you're missing out on Tormented Hero; dude is serious business with Artful Dodge and Military Intelligence. I'm glad I tried this deck.

My version has been lacking in quality T2 plays (Military Intelligence may cost two mana, but it's not a T2 play) and with only seven one-drops, I feel like I can add some number of Guildgates into the mix to make the mana a bit better because it hasn't been strong. I also think that Bloodghast could earn a slot after all because I'm so heavy on the black mana that he's castable on curve and solves the problem of missing a relevant T2 play. After playing the deck some, I think I was wrong about Viscera Dragger here because having something to do on T2 is important and this guy gives options. You guys were right but I don't think he's a four-of here. I also think Bident is better than Shadowborn at removal (because of all the deathtouch) with the upside of being a beating on offense so I'm going to sub one-for-one there. Also Phyrexian Rager is bad in aggro. Lesson learned.

Here's where I am now (EDITED):



EDIT - The following info is obsolete.....

The difference between Stevo's and mine now just boils down to:

-1 Island
+1 Swamp

-3 Hysterical Blindness
+3 Military Intelligence

-2 Viscera Dragger
-1 Bident of Thassa
+3 Tormented Hero

Turned out pretty close in the end!

I don't think there's anything wrong with your changes - essentially it's just a different take on the archetype. I prefer a slightly slower, more tricky approach, and you prefer a quicker, more direct Aggro approach. Both are valid and down to personal taste really, and I can see how both would work as the decks are recognisably still trying to do the same thing.

I'm just glad between us all we've essentially developed a new archtype - Dimir Aggro! I've played 1343 MP games according to the stats and i've never come across a deck doing what this deck does, so that's something good!

To anyone who had mixed experiences testing this upthread, I'd really urge you to give it a second look. Either my version or Hakeem's, as both do improve on the concept a lot.

Consistency is far better now! I am running stevos even though I am sure hakeems will win a little more consistently. It is just too fun to force people to attack and hysterical them or just simply attacking and hystericaling their blockers.

I'm having excellent success and a surprising amount of fun with this deck. Like just now:

T1 Swamp, Tormented Hero
Opp Tapland

T2 Attack (18), Swamp, Pharika's Chosen
Opp Tapland

T3 Attack (15), Island, Liliana's Specter
Opp Basic Land, Cultivate

T4 Swamp, Paragon of Open Graves, Attack (7)
Opp Basic Land, Angelic Edict the Paragon

T5 Cycle Viscera Dragger, Unearth Viscera Dragger, Attack (-1)

Good times.

Talk about overdrawing your hand.....

That's the reason I don't put Military Intelligence in.

It has amazing utility, but it brings it too close to my Faerie deck for me which also uses those and the Bident. I often end up with board states like that, and there wouldn't be a huge point for me in running two decks that were so similar in strategy.

Also, I just love Hysterical Blindness, and it competes for that slot. Nobody uses it, so nobody sees it coming. It's great anti-Baneslayer/First Strike tech too, which I imagine your build likely has occasional issues with.

Pros and cons, certainly, but I'm enjoying the deck this way. Thanks for sharing the concept.

Okay guys, so I was completely wrong about Viscera Dragger here. The deck needs something to do on T2 and Unearthing it later is sometimes the difference between hitting or missing a Military Intelligence trigger. It's also a two-mana 4/4 haste with a Paragon in play.

In order to squeeze in the other two, I'm going to cut the Graveborn Muses; the deck just has so much draw power with Intelligence, Bident, and cycling that Muse is just not needed because it's a bit too slow and vulnerable here.

The red matchup is absolutely terrible, but I don't think there's much I can do about that.

I agree with your changes. I've said before what a huge fan of the Draggers I am, and it makes sense for me to keep the Muses as I don't have the Military Intelligence draw.

So, the difference in builds now is;

-1 Bident of Thassa
-2 Graveborn Muse
+3 Military Intelligence

Just a reshuffle of draw options. Yours is earlier and more aggressive, mine is later and more tactical.

-3 Hysterical Blindness
+3 Tormented Hero

Chosing earlier aggro over later blowouts. Blindness is good in the Red matchup though, as it can essentially mitigate an entire turn of damage, or in defence act as a one-sided board wipe...

I'd also say you could maybe risk going down to 21 lands, as your deck is cheaper than mine. Not sure what your last card would be though, as unless you want to add a second Bident (which at 4 mana is probably not wise) you're looking at a singleton. Maybe a Hall of Triumph?

My friend also has a pretty cool Blue Token (Thopters and Squids) deck, which is also quite unique. Seeing as this has had a good reception, and I'm low on original deck ideas currently, I'll post that later today (I'll need the list from him) and see if anyone likes it.

I actually debated going to 21 land but I'm not sure on it yet. Hall would be way up on the list of choices, though. Actually, I think I will sub out an Island for a copy of Hall, what the hell.

So far I've had a game where getting Draggers onto the battlefield underneath countermagic mattered, and Bloodghast gets a lot of extra value with a Paragon in play. Threatening deathtouch actually makes him a lot more relevant than he would otherwise be in the lategame. I also had a game against Talrand where I attacked two Specters into two Drakes and gave them both Undying to force him to discard his last two cards. Artful Dodge has been fantastic here, as well. There's a lot of cool stuff going on.

I've been playing all morning and only lost three games, probably won ten or so. If the deck curves out it is beastly.

I've also been thinking about Blister Beetles in the deck, it would be great against tokens and good with Undying as well. I'm not sure if it's better than Bloodghast or not. Probably not.

The benefit of Bloodghast (or at least the original intent) is that it's something people hate to trade with, as it replaces itself if it dies as soon as you pull another land. Like the Dragger it also has Haste, so as soon as you drop someone below 10 life, people have to be very wary of your graveyard.

Nobody wants to trade to an Unearthed Dragger or a Bloodghast as they're losing card advantage. And the Specter also damages advantage too as, with the discard it's already paid for itself in that regard, so is relatively disposable. As the Pharika's and Strixes are low toughness Deathtouchers, people also hate trading (tokens excepted) and with Dodge, you choose what they have to block, always giving them the unwelcome choices.

There's only the Paragons and Agents that anyone would purposely trade anything worthwhile with, and even the Agent takes anything that blocks it. The issue with Blister Beetles is that after the ETB it doesn't really do anything. People will happily chump it, so unless it got a kill with the minus counter, it's a more expensive and less useful Pharika's. One that's gained you no card advantage, will likely never get damage through, and has slowed you down due to the low value relative to the cost.

Personally, I'd rather just put Dead Weights in if you feel you need low level removal, as it's cheaper and the Beetle's body is only marginally relevant if you have a Paragon.

Yeah I get it, but I was just looking at them as an answer to tokens and weenies. It would make those matchups only slightly better while weakening me a lot versus the entire field so I'm not going to do it. I just thought I'd put it out there because it was a consideration and part of my thought process.

I agree with the sentiment that Artful Dodge combined with deathtouch lends this deck an element of control that's pretty unique. There is some definite room for skillful play here.

I think almost every deck is weak to tokens, so I don't lose much sleep over it. It's a flaw of the way they've designed the metagame, and if every deck was designed to be strong versus them while optimal in every other area, we'd have about 4 viable decks, and that's neither enjoyable or challenging.

I'd much rather play something fun and thought provoking that was good against the rest of the meta. Hysterical Blindness is good versus tokens though...