I would also drop rescue from the underworld for bloodghast, it works well with bloodflow and helps beating down with vengevine
Bloodghast absolutely works very well with Vengevine (2 copies were in my previous version of this deck); I probably put in the latter one but about Bloodghast I consider that in the early phase of the match I want that the creatures died or discarded remain died or discarded for incoming Spider Spawning or Nemesis of Mortals, so probably I couldn't exploit very often the auto-rescue ability of Bloodghast.
That's because there's no such thing as a strong blue deck.
- Black Barney, hating blue decks since 1992
What I meant to say in a too synthetic way is that I'd like to test this deck against control decks (nullify, negate, voyager's end and so on) for evaluating weak points because I suppose that one or two instant or sorcery with cancel or return in hand effect in a row can be very dangerous for this build.
The main reason of its great consistency is the Elvish Visionary-Phyrexian Rager sequence in turn 2-3, that grants me (almost in every game) a great bonus of two extra cards.
Therefore Doubling season with Spider Spawning has explosive effect (I've collected over 80 spiders in a recent match) and the recursive cycle obtained with the combined use of Necromancer's Assistant/Gravedigger/Satyr Wayfinder/Treasure Find/Rescue from the Underworld guarantees many paths to victory and a great flexibility during the mid phase.
But probably the best card in the deck is Bloodflow Connoisseur that marks the tempo of the match as a sort of playmaker, adding an other option to this deck, that is not only focused on the banal spider spawning (its sacrifice ability is amazing and heavily affects the opponent choices during the attack phase).
At now I have 61 cards, probably I'll remove 1 Howlgeist (I know there are a lot of 6-mana creatures better of it, but it fits very well in the deck due to its the synergy with doubling season and its undying property (that makes it an ideal target for the above mentioned sacrifice engine).
Moreover this deck assures a great amount of card drawning, for example this an ideal sequence to obtain in a easily way 4 extra cards: turn2 -> Elvish visionary (draw 1 card); turn 3-> Phyrexian Rager (draw 1 card); turn 4 Bloodflow Connoisseur that sacrifices Elvish visionary; turn 5 Rescue from the Underworld to play again the combo Elvish Visionary + Phyrexian rager obtaining other 2 cards.
Suggestions are welcome!
No offense, but I really like this deck. I'd say it's the best Spider Spawning deck I've seen as I'm not usually a fan of them, and I think it all comes down to the inclusion of Bloodflow Connoisseur.
Regarding Hakeem's suggestions for deck alterations I would have to disagree on almost all counts, especially on removing Gravedigger. Extra recursion of threats can be extremely helpful, and there's a reason why they've upgraded him to uncommon in M15 (though not in DotP, oddly enough).
The one thing I do agree with is perhaps trying to include Vengevine, however I can't find anything you might want to remove to put him in and drop your list down to 60. Oh, and I really like the inclusion of Howlgeist, this is the first deck list I've seen him in where I felt like he really belonged.
_________________
"Don't underestimate the aerodynamic qualities of the common goblin."
The main reason of its great consistency is the Elvish Visionary-Phyrexian Rager sequence in turn 2-3, that grants me (almost in every game) a great bonus of two extra cards.
Therefore Doubling season with Spider Spawning has explosive effect (I've collected over 80 spiders in a recent match) and the recursive cycle obtained with the combined use of Necromancer's Assistant/Gravedigger/Satyr Wayfinder/Treasure Find/Rescue from the Underworld guarantees many paths to victory and a great flexibility during the mid phase.
But probably the best card in the deck is Bloodflow Connoisseur that marks the tempo of the match as a sort of playmaker, adding an other option to this deck, that is not only focused on the banal spider spawning (its sacrifice ability is amazing and heavily affects the opponent choices during the attack phase).
At now I have 61 cards, probably I'll remove 1 Howlgeist (I know there are a lot of 6-mana creatures better of it, but it fits very well in the deck due to its the synergy with doubling season and its undying property (that makes it an ideal target for the above mentioned sacrifice engine).
Moreover this deck assures a great amount of card drawning, for example this an ideal sequence to obtain in a easily way 4 extra cards: turn2 -> Elvish visionary (draw 1 card); turn 3-> Phyrexian Rager (draw 1 card); turn 4 Bloodflow Connoisseur that sacrifices Elvish visionary; turn 5 Rescue from the Underworld to play again the combo Elvish Visionary + Phyrexian rager obtaining other 2 cards.
Suggestions are welcome!
No offense, but I really like this deck. I'd say it's the best Spider Spawning deck I've seen as I'm not usually a fan of them, and I think it all comes down to the inclusion of Bloodflow Connoisseur.
Regarding Hakeem's suggestions for deck alterations I would have to disagree on almost all counts, especially on removing Gravedigger. Extra recursion of threats can be extremely helpful, and there's a reason why they've upgraded him to uncommon in M15 (though not in DotP, oddly enough).
The one thing I do agree with is perhaps trying to include Vengevine, however I can't find anything you might want to remove to put him in and drop your list down to 60. Oh, and I really like the inclusion of Howlgeist, this is the first deck list I've seen him in where I felt like he really belonged.
Thanks djAMPnz, in the past I've tried many of your decks found in this forum and I enjoyed them/learned from them a lot, so I'm happy for your positive opinion about my deck.
In effect the Bloodflow Connoisseur, once protected by an army of spiders, really shines in this build especially in the defensive phase. As soon I understood that it is legal to block an attacker with a creature, then sacrifice it before the conclusion of the attack avoiding in any case the damage from the attack and -above all- leaving the attacker tapped, I started to put togheter this build.
Thanks to Bloodflow Connoisseur, in the above mentioned situation in a defensive phase with a lot of spiders , we can have a triplicated advantage using the sacrifice tactic: 1 - the damage of the attack is avoided, with the sacrifice of a low level creature that was gonna die anyway 2 - the Bloodflow Connoisseur gains N +1/+1 token (or 2xN/4xN in caso of Doubling Season out) 3 - if the target of the sacrifice is a not a token creature, we can quickly fill the graveyard, enabling the Nemesis of Mortals casting or a new invasion of Spiders (due to the Flashback ability).
About Vengevine, after a brief analysis I think it is a must-to-have for this deck for the nice combo of haste+free return from graveyard, so I'm looking for a solution. Maybe I can remove one of the Rune-Scarred Demon that in my 16 games with this deck (13W/3L) didn't have a great impact.
Joined: Oct 31, 2013 Posts: 7350 Location: Newfoundland
If Bloodflow is only good behind an army of spiders, then perhaps it's not all that good. Everything is roses when you're winning, but you have to evaluate a card's performance in all board states; ahead, at parity, and behind.
Rune-Scarred Demon lets you win from behind, lets you pull ahead from parity, and is a savage beating when ahead. Connoisseur is terrible when behind, decent at parity, and great while ahead.
Choose cards that help you win, not those that help you win-more.
If Bloodflow is only good behind an army of spiders, then perhaps it's not all that good. Everything is roses when you're winning, but you have to evaluate a card's performance in all board states; ahead, at parity, and behind.
Rune-Scarred Demon lets you win from behind, lets you pull ahead from parity, and is a savage beating when ahead. Connoisseur is terrible when behind, decent at parity, and great while ahead.
Choose cards that help you win, not those that help you win-more.
Luckily this deck is designed to put her behind a huge army of spider ;-)
About Rune-Scarred Demon vs Bloodflow Connoisseur, in absolute terms you're obviusly right, but in relative terms from a RARE 7-drop I have high aspectative in every situation (ahead, parity, behind) but from a COMMON 3-drop I'm satisfied if it can help me even only in a definite situation like this, especially in this type of deck where, due to the high number of cards drawn, it's easy recreate the optimal context that this card needs to perform well. At now I've 18 matches under my belt with this deck and in all except one I was able to assemble a huge number of spiders.
Joined: Oct 31, 2013 Posts: 7350 Location: Newfoundland
That's the power of this archetype; not many decks can beat the huge army of spiders if you can assemble it. What I'm saying is don't let the fact that you're winning because ofthat army influence your evaluations of your other cards.
If you feel your deck is performing well and you're happy with your choices then that's great. I'm just sharing my experience in the case that that may help. And trust me, I've won a lot of games with spider armies!
Thanks for this Hakeem, every help is greatly appreciated by me because I'm a novice player and also I have two great other weak points that influece my judgment on cards value:
1 - I have a wrong RPG approach in the deck composition, preferring a well themed card rather then a strong card 2 - I have a fatal attraction in dim/underpowered/little-used cards like Howlgeist (for example in Dotp2014 I used almost only HS or EtD deck, avoiding the unbalanced AG)
Therefore I'd like very much to go in deeper analysis (I like very much the discussions that I read every day in this forum) but I have a great difficult to express myself in english, especially when I try to relate about game situations happened to me, in support of my thesis.
Thanks for this Hakeem, every help is greatly appreciated by me because I'm a novice player and also I have two great other weak points that influece my judgment on cards value:
1 - I have a wrong RPG approach in the deck composition, preferring a well themed card rather then a strong card 2 - I have a fatal attraction in dim/underpowered/little-used cards like Howlgeist (for example in Dotp2014 I used almost only HS or EtD deck, avoiding the unbalanced AG)
Therefore I'd like very much to go in deeper analysis (I like very much the discussions that I read every day in this forum) but I have a great difficult to express myself in english, especially when I try to relate about game situations happened to me, in support of my thesis.
It's okay to play underused cards and overcommit to a theme as long as you realize that's what you're doing. Everybody gets enjoyment from this game in a different way.
When someone posts a decklist for review, I will always offer advice that aims to improve the deck for competitive play. Even if you don't take the advice (because of theme or whatever) it's still important that you understand why I'm giving it.
For example, Howlgeist is a bad six-mana card; you should expect more from a payment that high from a power-level standpoint. But if it's a card that you want to play, then play it. You just have to realize that it's not optimal.
Evaluating cards and choosing cards are two different things.
Thanks for this Hakeem, every help is greatly appreciated by me because I'm a novice player and also I have two great other weak points that influece my judgment on cards value:
1 - I have a wrong RPG approach in the deck composition, preferring a well themed card rather then a strong card 2 - I have a fatal attraction in dim/underpowered/little-used cards like Howlgeist (for example in Dotp2014 I used almost only HS or EtD deck, avoiding the unbalanced AG)
Therefore I'd like very much to go in deeper analysis (I like very much the discussions that I read every day in this forum) but I have a great difficult to express myself in english, especially when I try to relate about game situations happened to me, in support of my thesis.
It's okay to play underused cards and overcommit to a theme as long as you realize that's what you're doing. Everybody gets enjoyment from this game in a different way.
When someone posts a decklist for review, I will always offer advice that aims to improve the deck for competitive play. Even if you don't take the advice (because of theme or whatever) it's still important that you try to understand it.
For example, Howlgeist is a bad six-mana card; you should expect more from a payment that high from a power-level standpoint. But if it's a card that you want to play, then play it. You just have to realize that it's not optimal.
Evaluating cards and choosing cards are two different things.
Reviewing other big drops green/black in terms of compatibility with this deck, I have to admit that Pelakka Wurm is stronger than Howlgeist: great stats, 7 life points when enters in game, 1 card when dies, great synergy with Treasure find/Rescue from Hunderworld/Bloodflow Connoisseur.
But Howlgeist costs 1 mana less, has Undying (I have won my last match because it was the only surivivor after a deadly Planar Cleansing) and with Doubling Season in play it becomes a quite solid 6/4, so it can be blocked only by creaturs with power 6 or more (not so many I think).
However I try to put in Pelakka Wurm and Vengevine and keep you informed of the results.
Joined: Oct 31, 2013 Posts: 7350 Location: Newfoundland
I'm going to be re-evaluating all of my builds in light of the new cards that have been added but it won't be soon; I want to get a feel for the new metagame and brew some new decks before returning to these.
Viscera Dragger looks like a strict upgrade from Phyrexian Rager and Mycoloth is certainly one hell of a card that I'll be considering.
Mycoloth is officially nuts... Just had a game with my Doubling Season deck where I had 2 Seasons and 3 small creatures in play.
Next turn I cast Mycoloth and ate all my creatures. This gave him 24 +1/+1 counters, and in my upkeep next turn he generated 96 Saproling tokens... He converted 3 creatures into close to 100!
3 x Devour 2 = 6 x +/+1 counters, which 2 x DS quadruples to 24 counters. In the upkeep, Mycoloth generates 24 Saprolings, which 2 x DS quadruples into 96 tokens.
Pretty lucky draw, but still. The power of the Mycoloth is strong! I think he's going to take the Elder of Laurels' spot in my Spider Spawning deck.
I think this deck will win most late games so pharika's chosen is needed to trade early and make sure we get there. It is essentially a removal spell with a body.
With the addition of viscera dragger I think adding bloodghast gives you a nice beat down plan even without spider spawning. Beastmaster's ascension also complements this plan.
I have gone with the full 3 treasure find as these help in any situation, in particular they make getting your single shadowborn demon or mycoloth when you need it. I like 1 mycoloth as it is good in certain situations but I don't think you ever want to draw 2.
I disagree that you'd never want two Mycoloth. As one of THE most powerful cards in the game, you want a second to ensure frequency of draw. If you manage to resolve one and draw another, then one of two scenarios will occur:
1) You're already winning in a dominating fashion, so it doesn't matter what you've drawn. 2) Somehow you're not winning, so you use the second Mycoloth to eat the Saprolings the first produces, and completely flood the field.
Either way, the second one is never going to be a dead card unless you have no creatures at all, in which case a 4/4 is still better than nothing.
Last edited by Stevolutionary on Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks Stevo, I haven't tested online yet due to the bug, my main thought process was that beastmaster's ascension or elder are my main plan, mycoloth is just the back up plan. That is why I had 1. I may replace pharika's chosen with the extra mycoloth
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