I don't make a point of saving my Finds, so often I'll use them to recover something early as soon as its died or been cast if I haven't self-milled. In that way (as it's cheap enough) they often work as a 4th Weight by pulling one back, or a 4th Wolf. Recasting Spawning rather than flashing and Exiling it is also beneficial.

3 is working fine for me. I'd always want at least 2 for strategy purposes, and the 3rd is simply a way to recover early losses by working as an additional copy (they insta-kill my Jade Mage, I just pull it back) In that sense, it's fine in your opening hand as it gives you a sense of security by working as a second copy of a desirable early creature.

In the same way there's a single Sadist. As well as being synergistic, it essentially works as a 4th Wolf (it's a 1 drop and can easily become a 2/2) and a 4th Weight (can easily kill a 2/2). I tend to build my decks by having lots of things pull double duty this way and link together themes. I'd have a second Sadist, but can't afford the lifeloss, so it's there mainly as a toolbox thing I can grab if needed (when DS is active) but isn't bad if I just draw the one naturally as it can fill the role of my other 1 drops.

Lastly, TF is a decent pull with the Demon. There may be something I need that I've run out of late-game, and this way he allows me to tutor my GY as well as my deck, like the singleton Sadist. By that point I've often cast a TF and milled another, so a 3rd helps.

I guess it's better when all of the stuff you want back is so cheap; I'm used to playing it in midrange decks where recovering something and recasting it is in the seven or more mana range.

Did you consider Elder of Laurels for this list at all? It seems like it would be good here with the Jade Mage and Spider tokens. I suppose Paragon fills the same role and helps push through damage with Nemesis and Colossus.

Yes, the Paragon is the glue here instead of the Elder. I like the Elder, and use it as a win-con in my Sultai Spawning deck, but here I prefer the versatility of the Paragon as I feel it compliments both of Doubling Season's abilities better, and crucially isn't a mana hog, which allows me to spend my mana triggering Monstrosity or generating tokens instead. Or just passively have a defensive bonus early on and still cast cards as I don't have to hold back mana.

The deck can go in a few different directions (a few large fat creatures, or lots of small ones) and if you end up down the Monstrosity route the Elder is of limited use while the Paragon is fantastic, while still being great with tokens. It's also another reason I only have a single Sadist, as I want to limit my Black creatures due to the Paragon.

what the heck is going on here. I'm going to step outside and see if cats and dogs are playing together...

I really want to see Vengevine in the list, I think that's another really solid card that's underplayed and this deck has the Paragons to buff it and a myriad of cheap creatures to be able to recur it.

I get the synergies it provides, but how much work does Quest for the Gravelord actually do? I ask because it's never been a problem for me when I've seen it on the other side of the table.

Vengevine doesn't really work, as I have no draw so rarely play two creatures at a time except for in the early game, and as producing tokens doesn't count, only casts, it more often than not just sits in the graveyard unless I Treasured Find it out. Even then, it's not big enough to benefit from Trample much and has no synergy with Doubling Season, so is just an efficient Green creature.

It's only really come off with an early Satyr Wayfinder, but I have Nemesis of Mortals for that scenario, which also has a better end game. I've cast one for 2 mana then made it Monstrous for 2 mana with both Doubling Seasons and a Paragon out before. A 26/26 with Trample for 4 mana is not to be sniffed at.

The Gravelords were a tip from a friend that I was initally reluctant to use, but have proven excellent. They're very easy to tick up, as I have tokens and Undying creatures that I don't mind dying, but with Doubling Season they really shine, and will often be a card I'll Treasured Find back. If you're in a stalemate, so in no immediate need of one, you can often wait to crack it until you get a DS too to increase the value.

Imagine the scenario (which has happened before) I have two Doubling Seasons down and I play a Quest then attack with all. If you block and kill a SINGLE creature, I get 4 x 5/5s. Even with just one out, two deaths net me 2 x 5/5s. On its own it's nice, for the token/Undying synergy, but with DS it becomes terrifying. People panic in combat as they don't want to trigger it, which stops them blocking, or even attacking into a single Saproling unless they can kill me that turn.

It may seem I rely on DS a lot, and I do, but with 2 copies, 2 Demons, self-mill and 3 TFs, I get at least one out in most games, and everything that benefits from it had at least one other card it combos with, so is still strong without it. Case in point being the Quests with token deaths and Undying creatures.

Been playing a bit more, and the Dead Weights are really pulling their weight. I'm thinking of eliminating the Hunts entirely, but as they then reduce the utility of the Sadist, I may go 4 x Weight and 2 x ...something.

I'm really struggling with finishing my removal package. None of the options are that optimal.

Prey Upon: Most of my creatures are small, so not a guaranteed kill, and even then likely a 2 for 1 against me.
Hunt the Weak: Better than Prey Upon, and combos with Doubling Season, but expensive.
Ulcerate: No lifegain makes this risky. Dead Weight already deals with small creatures - I need bigger kill.
Tribute to Hunger: Very inconsistent card. Not reliable kill for the big targets unless that's all they have.
Flesh to Dust: Expensive and double Black costs in a largely Greed deck.
Vicious Hunger: Does the same job as Dead Weight. Not needed.

I could just go the Titanic Growth route and deal with bigger creatures in combat instead. In D15 I find direct removal much more important for the small utility creatures like Guttersnipe, Talrand and Vizkopa. Cards that are a nightmare unless you remove them, but never actually attack or block. A Baneslayer, while horrible, will always be attacking or blocking, so combat tricks instead of removal for that slot may be the way to go. Especially as having Tramplers, it could also finish a player off.

I think you should just add efficient creatures and make your opponent answer you rather than the other way around. A full set of Dead Weight is definitely ideal, then you could play Vengevine and the fourth Young Wolf. You can punish a lot of slow draws by just curving out with creatures.

Yes exactly, your deck is full of answers but that's only good if your opponent ends up asking the questions. You'd much rather be the person continuously asking the question, "Do you have an answer to THiS?" over and over again

I'm of that strategy too, which is why I talk of pressure cards like Titanic Growth as an alternative so I can just push past them. But there's occasional cards like Baneslayer, that are widely run, that require an answer.

I'm not about to skew my entire deck worrying about what-ifs, but I think in a build that has the ability to tutor from the deck and GY, I feel it'd be possibly negligent not to include something if I can.

I think I'm pretty much locked other than those last two slots. Either I'll go with removal (and possibly remove another card to get 3 copies) or go with Titanic Growths (3x again) or just pack in some more creatures. Time, and testing, will tell. If I wasn't so stubborn about it, this is probably where Beastmaster would go.

EDIT - Screw it. I've gone back to the original inclusion of Rescue from the Underworld (pre-posting here build). It keeps up the pressure by making sure I always have either a fat monster, token generator or lord. Expensive, but then so was Flesh to Dust I was considering instead. It worked well in the past, so I'm sticking with it. Updated the OP, and I think this is locked!

I think Rescue is fine, but I'd be leery of playing two copies because your curve is already on the high side. Have you thought about Graveborn Muse in these slots to keep your hand gassed up? You're not playing Ulcerate anymore so I think you can afford the life and with 12 black sources and Wayfinders casting it shouldn't be a problem. If not answered, that extra card every turn just smothers people.

I know she's not a green creature but if you think of her as a card-drawing enchantment that just happens to be able to attack and block perhaps you can get past your self-imposed constraints.

I personally would love to see a singleton pelakka wurm if we are going to do that whole milling tutoring recursion thing with 7 drops.

I mean........ you've got the forests for it. And you are planning on hard-casting rune-scarred. And that's a REALLY NICE creature to recur a lot, even if it's not the best with doubling season.

Also, I know it's old-fashioned, but a shadowborn demon never hurt nobody in a spider spawning deck. You are adding 5 drops anyways. You are also complaining about lack of HARD removal. Two birds. Meet stone. What is the worst that could happen?

Just tossing out some options there.

All things I've considered, but it's moving me further away from a counters/token deck and into the traditional Spider/Reanimator deck. As my aim is to get a working DS shell rather than the best ever Golgari build, I don't want to drift further away from that.

Rescues are working simply as they keep my problem creatures present (generators, lords and fatties) so I can keep applying pressure. The Wurm, Muse and Shadowborn are all excellent suggestions, but if I include them, then I start thinking of ways to get additional value from them, which means I start replacing things like the Wolves and Quests to add synergy with the Muse and Shadowborn, and I slowly end up recreating a deck I already have elsewhere. One concession invariably leads to another.

I think I'm going to test the Wurm in place of a Demon though, as it covers a weakness I have (no lifegain) While this weakens my ability to tutor DS, I can win without it, and the extra GY recursion allows me to pull a GY Demon better now anyway, so I've likely still got the same chances, but I'm more GY focussed than deck focussed on pulling it. Because I have more GY recursion, I probably don't need a 3rd TF, and could have subbed that instead (which would be the ideal solution) but swapping a 2 mana card for a 7 mana card, in an already expensive deck isn't a good idea.

I've been worried about the Wurm as it doesn't really combo with anything, without realising it doesn't need to as it has Trample natively, and one aspect my deck is all about is big Green tramplers. Weirdly, if it was the exact same creature without Trample, I'd probably be more excited as I'd be thinking "Ah, I could give it Trample!", such is how my brain works when building decks... I'm more interested in extracting hidden value than exploiting existing value, which is why I always die a little inside when I put Baneslayer in a deck.

I made this deck because Golgari is my favorite color combo, but I absolutely despise the awful token metagame we have right now, and I don't want to support it's continued widespread use.

I've seen tons of green/red ramp decks, but have yet to see a black/green one, so I present this one to you.

I've played only 10 or so matches with it, but it seems quite strong. Probably a little removal shy, and it's definitely mana intensive, but I've always got a full hand of cards, with answers to almost anything.

Couple of things I'm considering changing still, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts and recommendations.

Edit 1 - vengevine is out, in place Hunters Prowess x 2

I can see removing necromancer's assistant,
but with bloodghast,vengevine,shadowborn demon, soul of zendikar, Treasured Find - satyr wayfinder is worth the spot IMO.

Albeit it isn't so much original, I post my Golgari deck. I'm not a expert player, but this is without doubt my strongest deck so take a look at it:



The main reason of its great consistency is the Elvish Visionary-Phyrexian Rager sequence in turn 2-3, that grants me (almost in every game) a great bonus of two extra cards.

Therefore Doubling season with Spider Spawning has explosive effect (I've collected over 80 spiders in a recent match) and the recursive cycle obtained with the combined use of Necromancer's Assistant/Gravedigger/Satyr Wayfinder/Treasure Find/Rescue from the Underworld guarantees many paths to victory and a great flexibility during the mid phase.

But probably the best card in the deck is Bloodflow Connoisseur that marks the tempo of the match as a sort of playmaker, adding an other option to this deck, that is not only focused on the banal spider spawning (its sacrifice ability is amazing and heavily affects the opponent choices during the attack phase).

At now I have 61 cards, probably I'll remove 1 Howlgeist (I know there are a lot of 6-mana creatures better of it, but it fits very well in the deck due to its the synergy with doubling season and its undying property (that makes it an ideal target for the above mentioned sacrifice engine).

Moreover this deck assures a great amount of card drawning, for example this an ideal sequence to obtain in a easily way 4 extra cards:
turn2 -> Elvish visionary (draw 1 card); turn 3-> Phyrexian Rager (draw 1 card); turn 4 Bloodflow Connoisseur that sacrifices Elvish visionary; turn 5 Rescue from the Underworld to play again the combo Elvish Visionary + Phyrexian rager obtaining other 2 cards.

Suggestions are welcome!

Howlgeist is pretty bad for six mana and I think Doubling Season is just overkill. I also think Gravedigger is just too slow. You should be playing the fourth Elvish Visionary, the fourth Phyrexian Rager, and you should definitely be playing Vengevine. Graveborn Muse should also be in any non-aggro black deck. I also don't see any reason not to run the full set of gates so cut one of each basic land to fit in the other two.

-2 Gravedigger
-2 Doubling Season
-2 Howlgeist
-1 Swamp
-1 Forest

+1 Elvish Visionary
+1 Phyrexian Rager
+2 Graveborn Muse
+1 Vengevine
+2 Golgari Guildgate

That brings you to 60 cards. If you make those changes you get a lot closer to my deck.

For comparison, my Golgari deck makes the changes I recommended and then plays three Pelakka Wurms, Griselbrand, and an Elder of Laurels where yours uses the three Connoisseurs and two Rescues.

I would also drop rescue from the underworld for bloodghast, it works well with bloodflow and helps beating down with vengevine

Vengevine is a nice addition, no doubt about this, Il'll try to make space for it, thanks.

About the fourth copy of Elvish Visionary/Phyrexian Rager and considering the high rate of rescue from the graveyard, for now I'm pleased with three of each.

I'm a little perplexed with the Graveborn Muse usage because I have very few zombies in this deck but maybe I can try, it's unquestionably a great card, though I have yet many effects in this deck to draw card.

About lands, I had, in my previous version of this deck 4 copies of Guldari Gate but I think that it works quite bad with Satyr Wayfinder and with Elvish Visionary, so I prefer more basic lands.

And, as I said in other posts, I admit that Doubling season is my obsession, but finally I have found a deck in which it is very useful.

Nemesis of Mortals can easily become a tank with one or two Doubling season in play, as well as Bloodflow Connoisseur.
Therefore, playing a Spider spawning over a Double Season in play is very often the decisive move that endorses the victory (only one time until now* I lost a game with Spider Spawming/Double Season combo againts a white/red deck with two damned Anger of gods played in a row).

Then the mistreated Howlgesit. thanks to Doubling season, can grow to 6/4 or 8/6, so it becomes very difficult to block for everyone and it can be decisive in many situation and it's nice as a target for the hungry Bloodflow Connoisseur.

You're right, Gravedigger is probably underpowered for a 4-drop (bad stats), but it can rescue starting from turn 4 what is gone in the graveyard for the Necromancer's Assistant or Satyr Wayfinder abilities and however it is a body for the "sacrifice" purpose.

Thanks for the contribution.

*=I've played with this deck only 12 times so I have no enough of statistical data, for example I never faced a strong blue deck

That's because there's no such thing as a strong blue deck.

- Black Barney, hating blue decks since 1992