I assumed that development did its job and big creatures were viable. Bahraz would not be broken in Innistrad Block, for example. The fact that he is broken in Block Constructed is a problem that reflects on the metagame as much as Bahraz himself.

I think it may be ok to reduce Bahraz to 4 starting loyalty, but the problem of horrible creatures still remains. We need to enable more aggro decks and more midrange decks.

I still don't get how that thing ended up with a nuke as a -0

It's a because it might cause confusion with players on the "number of loyalty counters on Bahraz" thing.

Ok so I know this will be a bad thing to tell my stratergy, but I need to share this massive combos.....

Canoca of the Lost Orchard + 2x Viashino Suncaller + 2x Crushthread Sage = Unlimited Card Draw

Canoca of the Lost Orchard + 2x Viashino Suncaller + 2x Maraka Wolfcaller = Unlimited 2/2 Green Wolfs
(Also works with 3x Viashino Suncaller+ 2x Maraka Wolfcaller)

Added to this Voice of Unity and Knifetail Ambush....... And Huge combo out

The creatures do seem pretty weak. I'm almost terrified to play any in Limited with Hellish Snowstorm at common.

I do have a question about Bahraz though...can you still redirect damage to him when he has prot everything?

Bahraz talk:

As for Gruff...is that true? I thought if you -1 him immediately he dies instead of returning to your hand...if theatog is right, he's definitely going into my deck...

I think metalevolence has a very good point, but I think that instead of raising Gift of Maraka's rarity, the better solution would be to add a sorcery-speed restriction to its ability.

Gruff dies if you -1 him to zero counters.

If Bahraz has protection from everything, all damage that would be dealt to him is prevented, so redirecting damage to him is meaningless anyway.

I think the ramp is too good, not Bahraz. Yes, Bahraz is pretty strong, but literally one 5-mana creature with hexproof would put Bahraz out of commission. I think we should raise more things to match Bahraz's power level and nerf the overpowered support cards rather than pull Bahraz down to mediocrity.

Are we referring to the same card? A simple blocker allows bahraz to kill the creature with hexproof next turn.Or you could just use the +2 to drain the opponent, probably twice, after casting a wrath.

Could Brains and Bodies be the answer to him you are searching?

And removal allows you to kill the blocker. But a counterspell stops the removal. But a counterspell stops the counterspell, and so on...

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that Bahraz has answers built into his design. It's possible that Bahraz is still too strong even in an otherwise balanced metagame. I'm not against nerfing Bahraz. What I'm saying is that rather than point the finger at Bahraz because he feels so unfair to play against, we should level the rest of the playing field against the control archetype that makes him overpowered in the first place.

Has anyone done any testing against non-Bahraz decks? What's your impression of other archetypes? My gut feeling is "nonexistent" but all data is good.

I have redone the deck, and has been working out ok, turn 3, 5 creatures and 4 mana....

Dropping White was great to and adding more red....

4x Viashino Suncaller
2x Loamblood Druid
4x Groveskipper Ouphe
2x Canoca of the Lost Orchard
20x Forest
4x Track to the Lair
4x Delve into the Unknown
2x Island
2x Restoration Spirit
4x Crushthread Sage
2x Maraka Wolfcaller
2x Mountain
4x Sparksigil Apprentice
4x Arcane Scrying

Delve into the Unknown into the unknown is amazing, really works well when you use it with Viashino Suncaller and Restoration Spirit.

Sparksigil Apprentice is a great way to counteract the slow card draw, and with Delve into the Unknown only costing 1 life to bring it back....

I have made unlimited 2/2 wolfs on turn 5 to 6 about four times, and normally before turn 10.

Still think it may be too slow against RB Control or RU Control

I was about to make the point that everything I'm saying is still conjecture. I was originally just commenting on why it seemed u/b looks so powerful. If I learned anything from playing Fallingman's set, it's that its ok for things to be broken(ish) in community sets as long as everyone has equally broken things to do.

I've got my first playtest scheduled for tonight, after that, I think I'll poke around in Green and see what I can do. I have a list of pre-test theories on Google Docs going. After each playtest I'll be making notes and seeing how they tie in with the theories.

I'll be taking on Kithkin, it should go a ways to seeing how powerful Bahraz really is (or removal, since there seems to be a lot of spell recursion in the set).

So much creature hate..... It burns us..... .... Must find a solution... My Precious

So...played four games against Kithkin tonight. Bahraz hit the board for both of us. In both games, he won.

I don't know if we can learn much from it. First off, my deck was designed, in part, to combat opposing Bahraz'. I cast the first Bahraz, but I was already in firm control of the board.

In the second game Kithkin got a Bahraz. In this game, I fought the good fight and, through various tricks, managed to delay Bahraz until I had just enough time to lose

One of the things I noted as bad: Bahraz can attack on the same turn he becomes 20/20. That feels like an oversight. Maybe I'm being old fashioned (or too rigid in thought), but it was a shock that a Planeswalker could do more than one thing a turn.

The thing I don't like about Bahraz...20/20 is enough. His "ultimate" might as well say "win the game". I really like him though...I think this might be a better option:

Even without that...I think CKY is right. If we make more threatening creatures, or add more direct damage. It's ok. As long as all colors have a good way to interact besides "cast Bahraz yourself" I think Bahraz is passable in power level.

Took a look through the cards this morning and started building some decks.

Not saying anything about Bahraz's current power level but he probably wouldn't be weak if you made the cost of his board wipe -3.

Also, am I reading lifeblood of maraka right? I haven't seen anyone talking about it but does it deal 17 damage if you drop it on the opponent turn 3 and they can't answer it right away?

Geez...missed that one. It's the same on Cockatrice. G/B Bahraz deck for the win! (or, G/R Ignite the Ashes...probably better)

As for the note on Bahraz board wipe: I definitely would have been able to fight him off if that were the case as he wiped my board the turn he came down. Then again...I had very few lands that game. I, somehow, after 20 cards milled, only two of which were swamps, took like 20 turns to get a single swamp and never got the second I needed to cast Bahraz. Which makes me thing...Bahraz on Cockatrice is to cast. Is that right? or is it llike on Starstill? Cause I could have just given up if I had realized that earlier lol.

It was changed to

The intent is you play Bahraz as a board wipe and then slowly count up to the ultimate. He would be a pretty bad board wipe if he could only kill things with cmc 1 or less the turn you played him.

POSValkir, a valiant effort, but I want to keep the "demand Blood Tithe" and "Consume the Meek" flavor of the planeswalker abilities. I would rather tweak the numbers on Bahraz than change them and lose the tyrant feel.

Tentative Bahraz fix:

Bahraz the Tyrant

Planeswalker - Bahraz (M)


Each opponent loses 2 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.
Destroy all creatures with converted mana cost less than the number of loyalty counters on Bahraz the Tyrant.
As long as there are ten or more loyalty counters on Bahraz, he's a 20/20 God creature with protection from everything in addition to his other types.

Still op imo. The moment he manage to get his 2nd ability to clear the board. The control player is gonna have an easy road to victory against creature-based decks. Apart from direct destruction (do we have any?), creature-based decks are gonna have trouble getting him down.

Ironically, Bahraz's Steed is the best counter to Bahraz in the current metagame.

Hmm, why not add a "You lose life for each creature destroyed this way" clause to his board wipe? At least people will think twice before just spamming his ability.