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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Mardu beats Jeskai directly but which of them is better at beating down the Abzan players who have a ton of blockers?


I think at a prerelease there are a lot of people who don't play Magic as often, so they have to spend more time thinking about their moves. In a PTQ sealed the players would probably make decisions a lot faster.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:17 pm 
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I'm neither a terrible player nor inexperienced. I finished 4th of 44. A lot of the other Abzan players in the top brackets were also neither terrible nor inexperienced, and many of them also had to grind their way through the end of the alotted time to come away with their wins and draws to get there. The Abzan cardpool is designed to grind the creature combat to a halt and then eventually turn the tide.


Appreciate the broad brush though. "I won fast, so everyone who won slow must suck!"


Cool story about that 4 out of 44. I got first out of 109.

Oh, I thought we were bragging about things that don't matter at all.

The Afghan card pool is designed to be grindy, maybe. Does that mean you should always assume you play grindy? Not at all. You have a ton of 2 power 2CMC guys, and you have some of the best 3 drops in your colors. Mardu Hateblade is no joke, nor is Ruthless morph guy. I saw plenty of people playing straight WBG that were winning as fast as I was. The one Sultai player I saw was making short work of people (nobody actually picked Sultai). My last round opponent was playing an Abzhan deck that only lost because Butcher of the Horde is such a bomb.

You know who I saw going to time every round? The people who you only ever see for pre-releases at the bottom tables.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:25 pm 
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I wasn't 'bragging', I was debunking your broad-stroke accusation that all people who go to time are bad and inexperienced. I'm not saying I'm great or better than you, but 4th of 44 indicates I wasn't a bottom-table player and neither were my late tournament opponents - it was providing the context that I wasn't speaking of trends among the bottom table set, but that what I witnessed was true at the top tables at my event.

Didn't pull a Hateblade. Didn't pull a Ripper. It's sealed, you have to make do with what you pull. Aggro wasn't there in my pack. High-toughness grind and high-cost removal was. The only under-4-drop I had with a competent power to cost ratio was Chief of the Edge. I couldn't play cards I didn't have. The only creature card in my cardpool that I could play on T1 in WB was Disowned Ancestor. (and as it turns out, I didn't draw it to an opening hand once!)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:35 pm 
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Placement in events only matters when they are high stakes events. Plus there is a lot of variance in pool openings as well as game variance on top of that.

In terms of which is more aggressive, mardu or jeskai, it doesn't really matter. The point is that they are both aggressive but in different ways. Mardu is aggressive in a low to the ground curve out kind of way while Jeskai is aggressive in the we have a ton of flyers and tricks to get damage through way. If you are goldfishing, yeah, maybe mardu converts faster, but they line up well against different things.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:17 pm 
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Mardu was extremely fast when I was playing or watching players. Jeskai has a lot of fun tricks to go with a good cache of creatures. Both are really good at pushing the tempo in different ways.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:59 am 
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I wasn't 'bragging', I was debunking your broad-stroke accusation that all people who go to time are bad and inexperienced. I'm not saying I'm great or better than you, but 4th of 44 indicates I wasn't a bottom-table player and neither were my late tournament opponents - it was providing the context that I wasn't speaking of trends among the bottom table set, but that what I witnessed was true at the top tables at my event.

Didn't pull a Hateblade. Didn't pull a Ripper. It's sealed, you have to make do with what you pull. Aggro wasn't there in my pack. High-toughness grind and high-cost removal was. The only under-4-drop I had with a competent power to cost ratio was Chief of the Edge. I couldn't play cards I didn't have. The only creature card in my cardpool that I could play on T1 in WB was Disowned Ancestor. (and as it turns out, I didn't draw it to an opening hand once!)


It sounds like you honestly had a crummy pool. Like, not even the 2/1 that gives first strike (it's a common, which btw IS INSANE THAT THEY DID THAT)

Point still stands, this format isn't glacially slow.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:51 pm 
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Flopfoot wrote:
Mardu beats Jeskai directly but which of them is better at beating down the Abzan players who have a ton of blockers?


I think at a prerelease there are a lot of people who don't play Magic as often, so they have to spend more time thinking about their moves. In a PTQ sealed the players would probably make decisions a lot faster.


If that was true, the speed and amount of draws among players in every pre-release would be comparable. It's not.

The only other sealed format I saw with that many draws was Avacyn restored. I didn't see a single draw in 5 Zendikar events.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:56 pm 
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Jman22 wrote:
Mardu is by far the most aggro. I know this, because I absoloutely stomped Jeskai players with Mardu. I also did the same after picking Abzhan (surprise, I went Mardu instead, but I felt like implying I was primarily WBG and aggro, even though with the right pool you easily can)

Also, the only people I saw going to time were the people I know are terrible players who take forever. My matches rarely took more than 20-30 minutes.

Format isn't super slow like you guys are implying. I think the problem is that inexperienced players don't know how to attack with morphs. Knowing how to use morphs is probably the biggest skill testing factor of the format. I was beating with all sorta morphs as my opponents simply let them through, then never swung back unless they could unmorph, which was an obvious tell as to what morphs they had.

Sorry to say, but your analysis is wrong.



Being terrible at the game doesn't cause people to get more draws. It causes them to lose. Why weren't terrible players getting draws in Ravnica or innistrad?

Your statment is illogical.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:53 am 
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Jman22 wrote:
Mardu is by far the most aggro. I know this, because I absoloutely stomped Jeskai players with Mardu. I also did the same after picking Abzhan (surprise, I went Mardu instead, but I felt like implying I was primarily WBG and aggro, even though with the right pool you easily can)

Also, the only people I saw going to time were the people I know are terrible players who take forever. My matches rarely took more than 20-30 minutes.

Format isn't super slow like you guys are implying. I think the problem is that inexperienced players don't know how to attack with morphs. Knowing how to use morphs is probably the biggest skill testing factor of the format. I was beating with all sorta morphs as my opponents simply let them through, then never swung back unless they could unmorph, which was an obvious tell as to what morphs they had.

Sorry to say, but your analysis is wrong.



Being terrible at the game doesn't cause people to get more draws. It causes them to lose. Why weren't terrible players getting draws in Ravnica or innistrad?

Your statment is illogical.


Terrible players were getting draws all the time at the LGSs I went to for pre-releases.
They play glacially slow because they have to think about if they have to attack on an empty board, because their opponent has one blue mana and they are afraid of an unsummon* and other inane things.


*True story

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:01 am 
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Terrible players time out where I play the game. On the other hand, they can't forget triggers, miscount the number of counters, mistake a pumped creature's power/toughness...

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