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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:02 pm 
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This was an idea that I had, and I would like to apologize to Barinellos in advance, and ask him not to smite me.

The King's Gambit

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Well, it's written well enough, but I don't see her reaction going quite that way.
She's more likely to match a threat for a threat. (which after all is said and done, might amuse me if she pulled the strings in Dellity after all was said and done.) ((as a further aside, I can't help but think she'd take a pot shot at him for relying on toys either))

And since this is obviously set in a time before the mending, the walkers wouldn't be dependent on mana bonds, so some of that threat wouldn't be as scary.

But all that being said, as I mentioned, it bears no fault as to your actual writing.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:52 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Well, it's written well enough, but I don't see her reaction going quite that way.
She's more likely to match a threat for a threat. (which after all is said and done, might amuse me if she pulled the strings in Dellity after all was said and done.) ((as a further aside, I can't help but think she'd take a pot shot at him for relying on toys either))


Thanks. I might be able to do a revision tomorrow with these in mind. Trying to get The Duchess's mannerisms right in this conversation was difficult, in no small part because we haven't really seen her interacting with anyone that's on (or close to) her "level", aside from Shifter.

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And since this is obviously set in a time before the mending, the walkers wouldn't be dependent on mana bonds, so some of that threat wouldn't be as scary.


Really? I didn't realize this. I had assumed that either some of their power was simply from being Planeswalkers, and that the majority of their magic came from mana bonds, or that their Planeswalker-ness amplified the mana they summoned through the bonds.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Moonbeam wrote:
Thanks. I might be able to do a revision tomorrow with these in mind. Trying to get The Duchess's mannerisms right in this conversation was difficult, in no small part because we haven't really seen her interacting with anyone that's on (or close to) her "level", aside from Shifter.
Well I'd be happy to help if you'd like! I have this one little exchange really vividly in mind.
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Really? I didn't realize this. I had assumed that either some of their power was simply from being Planeswalkers, and that the majority of their magic came from mana bonds, or that their Planeswalker-ness amplified the mana they summoned through the bonds.

No, as weird as it is, their mana bonds mostly didn't actually come from the planes, but from the Eternities themselves. I don't think the Eternities actually provided colored mana, but for raw colorless mana, they had as much as they could sling around.

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Well I'd be happy to help if you'd like! I have this one little exchange really vividly in mind.


Sure! :)

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No, as weird as it is, their mana bonds mostly didn't actually come from the planes, but from the Eternities themselves. I don't think the Eternities actually provided colored mana, but for raw colorless mana, they had as much as they could sling around.
[/quote]

So... The lands that we use in the game weren't actually used by real Planeswalkers, who the players are supposed to be... But they were still used by non-Planeswalker mages? Ugh... Wizards... :nonono: This also means that it might take more than a day to figure out how to rewrite this exchange.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:46 pm 
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Moonbeam wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
Well I'd be happy to help if you'd like! I have this one little exchange really vividly in mind.


Sure! :)
Just fire a message off whenever you like, I'll be floating around doing this and that until then.

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So... The lands that we use in the game weren't actually used by real Planeswalkers, who the players are supposed to be... But they were still used by non-Planeswalker mages? Ugh... Wizards... :nonono: This also means that it might take more than a day to figure out how to rewrite this exchange.

In fairness, modern planeswalkers use it like that now, but... yeah, there wasn't much land bonding going on with oldwalkers.
Pre-revision had an even more scattershot use of the mana bond. Arena, for example, actually had the mages summoning the land itself into the arena.

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Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:19 pm 
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I have fallen woefully behind on these, but I'm going to catch up tomorrow, and I can't wait!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:38 pm 
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I have fallen woefully behind on these, but I'm going to catch up tomorrow, and I can't wait!

If it makes you feel any better, you aren't the only one sooooo...

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:52 pm 
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In fairness? The idea of the spark being a source of infinite mana is a totally canon-breaking retcon and I totally refuse to accept it. (Alsoooooooooo I'm pretty sure the lands didn't need to be summoned in Arena for the mana to be drawn upon, although there is other weirdness with respect to how stuff worked in that book.)

I like the story a lot! I'm a big fan of these bits of history getting filled in slowly via the microfic, though one of these days one of us should really write a longer Young Vasilias piece. One thing worth noting: it's been suggested before that Vasilias was driven off the plane of Ordrum/Tyrranix due to the Shifter opposing him. It's not definitive canon, but it's a suggestion that's been floating around for a long time and there might be a way to make that work with this... particularly with the concession Vasilias gives to the Duchess at the end.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:59 pm 
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In fairness? The idea of the spark being a source of infinite mana is a totally canon-breaking retcon and I totally refuse to accept it. (Alsoooooooooo I'm pretty sure the lands didn't need to be summoned in Arena for the mana to be drawn upon, although there is other weirdness with respect to how stuff worked in that book.)

All I remember is that Garth summoned an actual forest to the ring.
I didn't say it was necessary, but it did happen. The weird thing about the mana that I remember is that if I remember correctly, it actually came from the spells, which... were like trinkets or charms that people kept in bags.
Arena was a little weird.

And yes, the infinite mana thing wasn't what Richard intended in any fashion before the revision, but let's face it, Urza and his ilk were slinging a lot of sourceless mana around and... never really did seem to bond to anything.

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:12 pm 
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Yeah no so I actually basically took the trinkets thing and made it a major part of Kirsh's spellcasting because I loved it so much in Arena! That was a deliberate shoutout to that book. I think it's a great spellcasting device actually because it really represents the randomness of spellcasting well--you're just groping for the nearest item that you've used as a mnemonic emblem basically, and whatever one you touch on is your draw for that turn, essentially. It's so great. The Keys of the King sort of play with the idea too.

The mana in Arena--and it's never been 100% clear whether the mana was CONTAINED or simply REPRESENTED this way--was depicted as being held in bags of the earth of the lands that the mana was drawn from. This is admittedly very very strange, but I think Szat or maybe Ashtok (man remember Ashtok? Sigh.) suggested at one point that maybe the bags, like the trinkets, served as a device for helping mages to visualize the land to make connections to it. Tenuous but nevertheless potentially a way of making things compatible. Alternately, maybe bags of dirt = weak mana rocks?

I ascribe the lack of mana bonding to the same reason we almost never show a character forging a mana bond: it doesn't occur to us to disrupt the narrative that way. I think it's just an indication of breezing past the mechanics rather than an indication of some fundamental difference in the way 'walkers worked back then.

I thiiiink I do remember some of the 'walkers in Invasion drawing on lands specifically but I am in Canada and my copy of Invasion is not. :(


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:28 pm 
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Alternately, maybe bags of dirt = weak mana rocks?
better mana rock. Might be a little hard to carry around. (incidentally, I love the implication that space is all colors)
Quote:
I ascribe the lack of mana bonding to the same reason we almost never show a character forging a mana bond: it doesn't occur to us to disrupt the narrative that way. I think it's just an indication of breezing past the mechanics rather than an indication of some fundamental difference in the way 'walkers worked back then.
I dunno about that. Agents of Artifice, Purifying Fire, and Alara Unbroken took moments to touch on establishing mana bonds, but there's something else that we have to take into consideration.
That being that for all the travel there is, most of the time, we find our characters at a place they've had time to bond with already. We don't usually have much in the way of crash landings followed by getting their power bearings.

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Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:35 pm 
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The baubles didn't contain mana, they were simply a mnemonic to remember specific spells. Allow me to quote from Shattered Chains:

Shattered Chains, page 126 wrote:
"My grimoire. My book of magic. Every wizard needs one in the beginning, Chaney says. Remember Towser carried a little book chained to his belt? And Dacian, the brown wizard, had a bag at her shoulder? Well, these help me recall my catalogue of beasts and spells. See, this is a mushroom for the fungasaur. And this pin-"


Also, Shattered Chains tells of mana use:

Shattered Chains, page 93 wrote:
"Tapping, on the other hand, is gathering mana to you from surrounding lands. You can tap the mana of the land and air and water, or you can tap reserves inside yourself. But not too deeply, lest you be left a nut with no meat. You might die. Or worse..."


And, since Arena was mentioned, her's an abridged excerpt:

Arena, page 6-7 wrote:
"Garth lowered his head, extending his arms, gathering in his thoughts, calming them, focusing, remembering and not remembering, clearing away all. He reached outward, probing, looking toward the other's heart, sensing and knowing until all things dropped away and the land and waters within him were as clear as crystalline snow. The mana, the source of all power of spells, was ready.
...
He could feel the tension, the strength drawing out of the Orange fighter, focusing on the power he was drawing upon from distant lands and places-the mana which he controlled-bringing that power into the circle to serve his will."


So I think we can see that in the early days, mana did, as the game mechanics suggest, come from the land. It should of course be noted that both of these novels are pre-revisionist.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:43 pm 
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So I think we can see that in the early days, mana did, as the game mechanics suggest, come from the land. It should of course be noted that both of these novels are pre-revisionist.

It should also be noted as well, that mana bonds were something that people could seemingly trade between themselves since it was a rather large part of becoming a planeswalker, accumulating those bonds, and the walker villain of Arena demanded mana tithes so that he could maintain his place in the multiverse.

As with all pre-rev sources, it is a situation where there was very little lore to inform the authors of the supposed rules, so it was very much whatever they could glean from the card game's mechanics.

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Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:53 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
So I think we can see that in the early days, mana did, as the game mechanics suggest, come from the land. It should of course be noted that both of these novels are pre-revisionist.

It should also be noted as well, that mana bonds were something that people could seemingly trade between themselves since it was a rather large part of becoming a planeswalker, accumulating those bonds, and the walker villain of Arena demanded mana tithes so that he could maintain his place in the multiverse.

As with all pre-rev sources, it is a situation where there was very little lore to inform the authors of the supposed rules, so it was very much whatever they could glean from the card game's mechanics.

Yeah, very true. These were the days when mages could just become planeswalkers, after all, which we saw with BOTH Garth One-Eye and Greensleeves, and was later hinted at with Hazezon Tamar (one of my all-time favorite MTG characters, by the way).

So yeah, the "rules" of the multiverse in pre-Rev days are sort of nebulous at best.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:04 am 
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Hazezon Tamar (one of my all-time favorite MTG characters, by the way).
I am legitimately kind of bummed that the spirit token from Tarkir wasn't also typed as "sand"....

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:32 am 
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There's been some attempts to square that old stuff with post-rev stuff by saying that the mana was basically a way of kickstarting Garth's already extant spark. I think it's poooossible.

But yeah, thanks for the passages Raven, that's how I thought I remembered it working in those stories. Still totally enamoured of that structure, not gonna lie :D It's a great fantasy device.

Also, I think maybe we could compare 'walker mana bonding to mana burn or, hell, even the mechanics of summoning: it occasionally gets mentioned but on the whole, for as important as it is, not all that much.

Bloody hell it's annoying that I can't just look this stuff up in my books though. For some of this stuff I'm going off 6+ year old memories.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:58 pm 
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I (belatedly) read the latest batch of these, and I was once again reminded how glad I am that microfics have taken off of late. There's just so, so much good stuff which had accumulated!

@ Memory


@ Shuffle


@ Predator


@ The King's Gambit

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:50 pm 
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@ Memory

Sri is one my oldest characters, no pun intended, and even though he's been around for so long, he hasn't had a chance to really get out and mingle.
I think, in particular, that he is a very strong counterpoint to Zhiran, both grappling with the issues of growing old, but Sri has a level of acceptance that the archmage doesn't, and it makes for some potent story material.
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@ Shuffle

Yeah, the original Alessa piece just... never really did much for me, but it was easy to crank out. Getting the tepid response to it pretty much convinced me she needed another piece, and so Shuffle!
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@ Predator
Quite honestly, that bit I had no choice but to include. It's like when MLP mentions the word "hand" and I think "they don't know what that is...."

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:11 pm 
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Having already done a couple of Jakkard-related microfics, I'm finding myself tempted by the notion of doing a few more in order to bring the total up to six, and them grouping them together as a six-shooter. (Hat tip to Raven, whose idea I may or may not be blatantly stealing lovingly appropriating.)

Which leads me to ask -- are there any characters or scenarios which people would like to see in a Jakkard microfic? I don't have anything specifically in mind at the moment, so any and all ideas are welcome.

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