The Dota 2 camera is even worse though, whenever I hop over to play a game its like I can't see anything :.

At this point I probably should hop back over to Dota, since its on the up and I'm pretty bored of league, but getting used to all of the annoying nuances again might be more trouble than i care for anymore XD.

League seems to be slowing down a lot.

Casuals will be hopping onto the "Next Big Thing" soon enough.

Don't know if it'll be Dota or one of the 8 million new mobas or a new genre entirely (most likely), but it'll probably happen soon.

Does DOTA 2 still allow denying? That's one of the reasons I never was interested. It doesn't make sense to kill your own troops.

league of legends is so popular are you guys kidding me. finals of sc2 tournaments get like 1/6 as much viewership and sc2 is the second biggest esport

^not to mention valve just held a 3 million dollar tournament a few months ago.
Yeah it does and denying owns. Its like i'm so good at last hitting that I'm taking your last hits and oops you don't have any gold or xp now get out my lane and go cry to some jungle creeps n00b.

Any other questions about dota specifically probably better for the dota thread. Generally dota has a lot more little things you have to remember all the time (especially about creep behavior) and item builds are way more flexible. Games are also longer than league but its less snowbally.
Specifically its that controlling the free camera is awful. I use middle click drag for dota camera or minimap clicks. If there was a way to pan like that I would play league more at least for a fun break.

Yes, there is still denying. What do you mean exactly by not making sense? Denying adds another layer to lane control. You can starve the enemy lane of gold and experience which is a great advantage when it is against an enemy hard carry. In terms of lore, creeps aren't per se really your allies or troops. They are portrayed as mindlessly fanatical: Are We Heroes Yet? comic. ie. They function as another mechanic entity.


I agree with the length, however the snowball point not so much. It entirely depends on your team composition and how you play. Your team for example can have such a huge gold and/or experience disparity that the other team is starved to the point that snowballing is team-wide. In League catching up is infinitely easier because of the level cap being 18 and not losing gold when you die. Dota can set the pace for an hour long game within the first few minutes if people do not react accordingly.

"The team that takes as little as a 10% gold lead by 12 minutes wins over 90% of the time." Gold loss on death isn't as much a contributing factor as that items in LoL get more efficient in terms of stats as they get more expensive, while the most efficient item in dota are GG branches. A big item in league is a massive advantage compared to a big item in Dota.

I think Dota stomps hurt more though because in general the game is slower, and good snowball heroes don't often also take quick rax (Timbersaw for example can't do **** when taking high ground). They'll farm heroes until the carry that can break the base comes online with all the space they made.

I can't comment on the items in League in the current season, whatever that may be. Dota items can be outright gamebreaking not so much in terms of stat gain, depending on the item, but more so on how a lot of items, including late game items, are utility-heavy. Dota, in comparison to League (as I remember it), is utility heavy as opposed to the focus on damage gain. The same goes for abilities. Iron Branch is an item that is efficient, but is never a staple, and affects only the carrying unit. Most efficient utility and team-wide beneficial item would probably be Drums; that is great to get almost always regardless of the situation or item holder. Utility again is emphasized here. To compare the two games in terms of item set and item progression is rather difficult.

Getting a Satanic on an otherwise squishy hard carry hero like Gyrocopter is gamebreaking. That is not only an expensive item at 6150 gold, but it requires the Secret Shop to be built (as compared to LoL's I think the highest costing item is 3800g where all its component is purchasable in the one main shop). If you are starved for gold and experience most likely your team has also lost map control. Losing map control means next to no farm and good luck completing a late game item without safe access to the shop. ie. The gold loss mechanic is extremely detrimental as it stacks with other mechanics that deter stability climb, depending on who is starved. Gold loss on a support hero in Dota is negligible; many pro games have their supports starved outright - some have basic boots even to end game for example. Gold loss on a hard carry like Gyrocopter is felt by the entire team and to make the climb to rival the enemy team's strategy and hard carry can be impossible. Depending on the heroes you are going against, if they have a gank heavy line-up, large number of them being item independent, map control heavy team with globals, etc. that gold loss will hit you in the face like a brick.

Those parts I'm not arguing with, and part of the reason I like dota is specifically because items give great utility and are fun to use outside of just raw stats. It just takes longer to farm up that satanic if you're winning or losing in dota than whatever its league equivalent is because the game's timescales are different. When your average game ends at 20 minutes having a 10 minute lead is more significant than if your average game is 40 minutes long. Gyro also doesn't just need a satanic, its worthless without a BKB and a damage item or two at that (at least as a hard carry build, and even then I will admit that gyro is an extremely strong hero who's good at about every stage of the game because he's basically a support hero with one of the best right click damage steroids in the game).

IDK maybe we can agree to a compromise that Dota is based more on snowball effects but that league has more statistical stomps.

Gyro with Satanic was simply an example item I picked to go with my post; it could have been any late game item. An underlying reason with how their time scaling is so different is due to each games' mechanics and feature differences, some of which I mentioned. I cannot really comment on statistics comparing stomps. Your pool of games with Dota 2 would be much smaller and even then they are such different games so comparing stomps isn't really worth noting I would think.

HUSH YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO TELL ANYONE

I agree with Van's point about Dota theoretically being more snowbally than LoL. The game directly punishes you for falling behind, rather than just leaving falling behind as the punishment itself. Another thing that makes LoL less snowbally is that even when someone gets ridiculously fed, then the game will eventually even itself out if the other team actively tries to shut the fed person down (500 gold killing streak bounties btw), and stalls long enough for everyone to reach their full item build. Meanwhile, how often do you see even one person in Dota reach a six item build?

That being said, here's why I think LoL in actuality may be more snowbally than Dota: The second point I raised relies heavily on the fact that your teammates are competent.

I'm not sure if I understood your post, or what your second point is. You're saying LoL in actuality might be more snowbally because teammates can catch up? And I'm confused I thought Van's original point was that LoL is more snowbally.

You have very few games where a six late-game item build is required to end the game or guarantee a win. General six item core builds is more common however, depending on the hero you play. When I play supports I do not need more than 2-4 items as my core; a lot of the time I have a lot of surplus money and don't bother buying anything past wards for example, or I have a slot free.

I'm honestly not sure what anyone is saying anymore.

Real best MOBA is Dawngate obv. It has an otter lady with a izuna drop

SC2's MarineKing switches to League of Legends

Second one that I know of. My buddy and I were just talking about this yesterday.

there have been a lot more starcraft players than MKP to switch

off the top of my head, there is a guy who plays for OMG that was a protoss player for Samsung KHAN in brood war. Another brood war player called "Grape" switched too, but I don't remember anything about his LoL ID or team.

Several starcraft II players also switch to league of legends or dota
SeleCT played on QPAD Red Pandas for about a year and then switched back to SC2
sC, Coca, Min and Puzzle all switched to LoL before switching back, sC just re-retired along with his teammate "TheBest" to go back to league of legends

so, a lot more than 2 players

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=432609

league of legends is all but dead how do you feel about this

This video made me laugh far more than it should have.

I tried gettin into the game but the community really scared me away from it. Might give it another shot once I feel like it