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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Overmaster wrote:
Overmaster wrote:
Like I said, sometimes you DO get amazing, win plays with Tribute. However, I found these to be the unreliable case. It also really depends on the deck you're playing against-- If they only run lots of 3 or 4 drops, you can keep the board pretty clear and use a Tribute to take out maybe a 6/6. However, if they run lots of little guys, or you just can't keep up with the drop, Sparkmage is your buddy.

In most cases, I didn't even really need Tribute to take out a 6/6 or whatever the case. If you can keep up on the removal to force a sac on a big guy, you don't need the lifegain. It's just another case of optinization where I don't see the reliability in Tribute to Hunger.

Bias: I never liked Tribute to Hunger in this deck


I agreed 100% with until the last sentence. I initially loved Tribute in this deck. But it just incrementally seemed less and less useful. I only run a single now, and I'm debating dropping it altogether.

Personally... I feel like Tribute is a bit of a crutch as additional removal when you mulligan poorly or tap at the wrong times. It's another way to get you out of a jam if you make a big mess-up, but the better I get at keeping my removal efficient for the big guys, the less I need Tribute. To keep my removal efficient, the Cunning Sparkmage is my friend and my bandaid against the white weenie meanies.


I gotta say I'm thinking of trying out the Sparkmage after hearing the discussion about it in this topic. I've tested it in my RDW list and it's helped me push through damage towards the endgame a few times. I can see where it would have its uses in a control deck, too. But I'm with mega on this one. It seems like the value of Tribute to Hunger would go up with the inclusion of the Sparkmages. But that's a lot of room to make in a list like this, so it's gonna take me some time before I figure out how I want to approach it.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:34 pm 
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you are not guaranteed to draw both Sparkmage and tribute. Often you will draw just tribute.

Sparkmage without tribute = awesome
tribute without Sparkmage = fail.jpg

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:03 am 
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Not really. Anger of the Gods also picks off the small weenies. Between those and Sparkmages, that's 5 cards that get that job done. For me, the alternative was adding Flesh to Dust to deal with bigger creatures, but chances are if my opponent is laying down fatties, then don't have a bunch of weenies and Tribute can usually hit them anyways for cheaper and a bonus life boost. I'll post my Grixis build later today (short on time right now, but it is on my website in sig).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:18 am 
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rockshard wrote:
you are not guaranteed to draw both Sparkmage and tribute. Often you will draw just tribute.

Sparkmage without tribute = awesome
tribute without Sparkmage = fail.jpg

Exactly what I was going to say. This guy gets it! :teach:

Not really. Anger of the Gods also picks off the small weenies. Between those and Sparkmages, that's 5 cards that get that job done. For me, the alternative was adding Flesh to Dust to deal with bigger creatures, but chances are if my opponent is laying down fatties, then don't have a bunch of weenies and Tribute can usually hit them anyways for cheaper and a bonus life boost. I'll post my Grixis build later today (short on time right now, but it is on my website in sig).

I've considered the combo between Anger of the Gods/Tribute to Hunger, but it's a pipe dream. Unlike how you can already have Sparkmage on the field to remove the token before you play Tribute to Hunger, you're just not going to have 6 untapped mana, two of them being red, and both those cards in your hand, and absolutely nothing better to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:26 am 
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Grixis Defenders (no Premium)

2x Shock
2x Traveler's Amulet

1x Negate
2x Voyage's End
4x Doorkeeper

4x Auger Spree
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Assassinate
3x Guard Gomazoa
3x Corpse Blockade
2x Gargoyle Sentinel

4x Vent Sentinel
4x Ogre Jailbreaker
2x Inspiration

6x Island
5x Swamp
5x Mountain
3x Izzet Guildgate
3x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Dimir Guildgate

Notes:
Used to have Warmonger's Chariot, but it proved to be a little too slow and didn't have great targets other than Ogre Jailbreaker (which can already attack).
Decided to cut Inferno Titan and Stormbreath Dragon, because the activated abilities of Vent Sentinel/ Doorkeeper already soaked up a lot of mana in the lategame and are more consistent winconditions.
The removal suite is tricky, but edict effects are bad when you're playing with defenders, as they can sack useless creatures. Only included Shock to deal with utility creatures/small fliers.

Gameplay Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez4C-H59IM8

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:45 am 
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Overmaster wrote:
rockshard wrote:
you are not guaranteed to draw both Sparkmage and tribute. Often you will draw just tribute.

Sparkmage without tribute = awesome
tribute without Sparkmage = fail.jpg

Exactly what I was going to say. This guy gets it! :teach:

Not really. Anger of the Gods also picks off the small weenies. Between those and Sparkmages, that's 5 cards that get that job done. For me, the alternative was adding Flesh to Dust to deal with bigger creatures, but chances are if my opponent is laying down fatties, then don't have a bunch of weenies and Tribute can usually hit them anyways for cheaper and a bonus life boost. I'll post my Grixis build later today (short on time right now, but it is on my website in sig).

I've considered the combo between Anger of the Gods/Tribute to Hunger, but it's a pipe dream. Unlike how you can already have Sparkmage on the field to remove the token before you play Tribute to Hunger, you're just not going to have 6 untapped mana, two of them being red, and both those cards in your hand, and absolutely nothing better to do.

@rock I disagree with your statement there. Tribute has been great for me in this build, maybe I've just been lucky, I dunno. Sparkmage doesn't seem all that great to me here. I'll explain in more detail below.

@Over I'm not trying to be a d*** here, but have you actually played this build? Getting six lands with this build basically = equipping the deck and having an opponent. With the massive amounts of draw I have pretty much never had a problem getting lands and/or two sources of Mountains. I mean any deck will have the rare issue here and there (which is why even the "top" deck in the meta will still lose from time to time) but it is rare enough to where I wouldn't actually consider getting to six+ lands an issue.

It isn't about Anger -> Tribute being some amazing combo (although it can be an awesome play). It is the fact that Anger (along with the other 1,000 ways to get rid of the opponent's army) leaves the opponent with that one out of reach fatty where Tribute will take care of it and gain you usually much needed life by that point. I was playing a game where literally tutoring for Tribute with Rune-Scarred was the only single option that I had to come out with a win (which I did) against a beefed up Hex-Proof Primal Huntbeast. I've never had a hard time dealing with weenies w/o running Sparkmage. Does he help with weenies? Sure, but I just don't find myself ever *needing* it here.

Mainly I think Sparkmage is another way to play this build, not that it is really that much "better" or "worse". A good build like this can make minor changes (such as Sparkmage vs. Tribute) and still be really damn good. I think Sparkmage is really good, but in this build Tribute has been a better option in my experience.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:57 am 
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I agree, Tribute has a lot of value because the deck tends to keep the board clean and the life is relevant. We can talk about how three copies is too many, and maybe it is, but it definitely belongs in this deck.

Sparkmage is a great card, but I feel he doesn't quite fit here.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:24 pm 
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For those who haven't gone to my site and noticed this, here's my take on Grixis control, which is (very) loosely based on my irl Grixis control deck.

Mind Singe

Creatures - 8
3 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Charmbreaker Devils
1 Inferno Titan
2 Rune-Scarred Demon

Other Spells - 27
4 Shock
4 Think Twice
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Bolt of Keranos
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mind Rot
4 Auger Spree
3 Inspiration
1 Sphinx-Bone Wand

Land -25
3 Island
4 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Izzet Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Dimir Guildgate

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:33 pm 
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LegenVD wrote:
Grixis Defenders (no Premium)

2x Shock
2x Traveler's Amulet

1x Negate
2x Voyage's End
4x Doorkeeper

4x Auger Spree
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Assassinate
3x Guard Gomazoa
3x Corpse Blockade
2x Gargoyle Sentinel

4x Vent Sentinel
4x Ogre Jailbreaker
2x Inspiration

6x Island
5x Swamp
5x Mountain
3x Izzet Guildgate
3x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Dimir Guildgate

Notes:
Used to have Warmonger's Chariot, but it proved to be a little too slow and didn't have great targets other than Ogre Jailbreaker (which can already attack).
Decided to cut Inferno Titan and Stormbreath Dragon, because the activated abilities of Vent Sentinel/ Doorkeeper already soaked up a lot of mana in the lategame and are more consistent winconditions.
The removal suite is tricky, but edict effects are bad when you're playing with defenders, as they can sack useless creatures. Only included Shock to deal with utility creatures/small fliers.

Gameplay Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez4C-H59IM8

24 lands is enough. Replace the Traveler's Amulet with 2 Illusionist's Bracers. Equip them to Void Sentinel and/or Doorkeeper. On void do double damage every time he taps. On Doorkeeper, twice the cards from library going into gy.

Edit: Now that I think on it...Could the bracers on Cunning Sparkmage cause him to use his ability twice? Now THAT would be valuable info.
Edit: Yep, bracers on Cunning Sparkmage causes him to do double damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:37 pm 
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Yo mega, you're decks on the website have an issue. I clicked on degalution and it goes to the mono-black deck.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:42 pm 
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2bestest wrote:
Yo mega, you're decks on the website have an issue. I clicked on degalution and it goes to the mono-black deck.


And it seems Clouds of Evil goes to Degalution. The rest seem to be fine. Thanks for letting me know. It should be fixed in a few.

Edit: Should be all better now. That was a weird error. I had all the hyperlinks correct, the clouds of evil link went to the clouds of evil page, but the clouds of evil page didn't have the right deck on it. Huh. :wha:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:39 am 
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That Sphinx Bone Wand deck with Ogre Jailbreaker is really sweet. Kudos to whomever it was the constructed that one. Great build.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:01 am 
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Nebula wrote:
@Over I'm not trying to be a d*** here, but have you actually played this build? Getting six lands with this build basically = equipping the deck and having an opponent. With the massive amounts of draw I have pretty much never had a problem getting lands and/or two sources of Mountains. I mean any deck will have the rare issue here and there (which is why even the "top" deck in the meta will still lose from time to time) but it is rare enough to where I wouldn't actually consider getting to six+ lands an issue.

It isn't about Anger -> Tribute being some amazing combo (although it can be an awesome play). It is the fact that Anger (along with the other 1,000 ways to get rid of the opponent's army) leaves the opponent with that one out of reach fatty where Tribute will take care of it and gain you usually much needed life by that point. I was playing a game where literally tutoring for Tribute with Rune-Scarred was the only single option that I had to come out with a win (which I did) against a beefed up Hex-Proof Primal Huntbeast. I've never had a hard time dealing with weenies w/o running Sparkmage. Does he help with weenies? Sure, but I just don't find myself ever *needing* it here.

Mainly I think Sparkmage is another way to play this build, not that it is really that much "better" or "worse". A good build like this can make minor changes (such as Sparkmage vs. Tribute) and still be really damn good. I think Sparkmage is really good, but in this build Tribute has been a better option in my experience.


Hey, hey, no reason to get feisty now. :sweat:
At six land, I'm usually dropping Augers and Bolts to stop what cards my opponent's have already played, and at six mana they're usually not below 3 toughness. But my real point was, I'm not relying on having Tribute and Anger of the Gods in my hand at the same time, and I'm certainly not holding onto either one in hopes of making that combo. I don't like Tribute-- I don't need the lifegain, it's no good in the meta, it's too dependent on board conditions, etc.

To each his own! :party:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Sorry, wasn't meaning to get feisty, lol. It's just getting to 6 lands is ridiculously easy to do with this deck (and a lot more than 6). Again, Tribute isn't meant to be some specific scenario where you wait for Anger. I've not drawn Anger 100 times and still had enough burns/destroys in hand to where the opponent still has 0 options and Tribute works great. While gaining life for no reason (such as Meditation Puzzle) is not the best play in the world, it doesn't mean gaining life is meaningless. When I can not only destroy a 11/11 hex proof flyer when I'm at 2 life but also gain enough life to be able to take a few hits until I get something on the board it means a lot. I can't tell you how may times a well place Pelakka Wurm has saved my arse, and not just because of the 7/7 trample, but the gaining 7 life as well.

Still, as I said, replacing a couple cards that are not 100% key to the deck's main purpose with something else that isn't just straight terrible isn't going to make the deck that much better or worse.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:42 pm 
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This is one of two decks that I play consistently (the other being the U/W cloudshift/archaeomancer deck) and I've played the variation with the Sparkmages instead of the Tributes quite a bit. Honestly, both versions of the deck work fine, it comes down to personal preference. There are several times that the Sparkmage has won me the game, and there are several times that the Tributes have won me the game. If I had to choose between one or the other, I would probably go with the Tributes.

The Sparkmages are nice, being able to Auger Spree a Baneslayer Angel then ping it off is lovely. Dropping a Sparkmage followed up by an Inferno Titan makes token decks cry themselves to sleep at night. Being able to use Tribute as a better, cheaper Flesh to Dust due to all the other removal in the deck is also phenomenal. Casting Tribute on an opposing board of Kozilek and nothing else makes me feel funny down there. If you like the Sparkmages, run them. If you like the Tributes, run them. The deck will work either way.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:17 am 
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Here's a brew a friend and I came up with tonight. 5-0'd some randoms so I thought I'd give it a post. It borrows heavily from Hakeem's Grixis list, but uses different win conditions.

Grixfinity

1 x Island
5 x Swamp
7 x Mountain
4 x Izzet GUildgate
3 x Rakdos Guildgate
4 x Dimir Guildgate

4 x Auger Spree

4 x Think Twice
2 x Inspiration
1 x Time Warp

3 x Tribute to Hunger
2 x Flesh to Dust
4 x Ogre Jailbreaker
2 x Rune-Scarred Demon

4 x Shock
2 x Anger of the Gods
3 x Bolt of Keranos
1 x Inferno Titan
2 x Charmbreaker Devils

2 x Elixir of Immortality


Instead of Kozilek and a Sphinx Bone Wand as the primary win conditions, the deck can go infinite turns. With a Charmbreaker Devils and Elixir out, all you need is a Time Warp in hand. At the opponent's end step, activate the Elixir to put your graveyard into your library, then play the Time Warp. As it'll be the only thing in your graveyard, it will be returned every turn allowing you infinite turns. From there it doesn't matter how you win.

It seems a bit gimmicky, but the shell itself is strong enough to work around just about anything (Thanks, Hakeem!). The infinite combo is just gravy. In two of the games I played, I went infinite, and in the other three the removal package was too much for the opponent and the Ogres and Inferno Titan, and Charmbreaker just ran rampant.

I truly think that this deck can be a very good deck. Let's open this thing up to some discussion. Thoughts? Changes? Feel free to tell me I'm stupid and this won't work, as long as you tell me WHY you don't feel it can be good.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:30 am 
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10-0 so far. Just beat someone with Battle Mastery.

edit: 10-1

edit: *11-3
opponent cultivates into an arbor colossus. My Gomazoa gets destroyed by it. I have Flesh to Dust in hand but get stuck on 4 lands.

The other game I lost was a pretty awesome game. He is playing WBR control. With Elixirs. We both kept trading cards and popping elixirs so the game went long. However, he had a massive advantage due to the fact he ran (and drew) Grisrlbrand. (Grisrlbrand in a 3 color deck??) He had exactly four black mana sources, just enough to cast it. He draws 7 cards. I kill it. He pops Elixir and eventually draws it AGAIN. And draws another 7 cards. And I still manage to hold off for a while but ultimately I run out of cards and opponent draws Inferno Titan.


Attachments:
File comment: Cunning Sparkmage is a really good card
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_20140806_053335.JPG [ 80.94 KiB | Viewed 10768 times ]
File comment: well, darn!
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_20140806_053154.JPG [ 43.53 KiB | Viewed 10769 times ]
File comment: AI takeover. No wonder he wasn't playing anything.
_20140806_052915.JPG
_20140806_052915.JPG [ 77.07 KiB | Viewed 10770 times ]

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* = a game in which the opponent had Battle Mastery. My non-premium decks:
"Meatgrinder" 6W 1L
"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
"Species Horror" 4W 1L / (new) 4W 1L --- "History Channel" *3W 1L


Last edited by rockshard on Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:30 am 
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I just one-shotted somebody by casting Auger Spree on my unblocked Kozilek twice. God, I love this deck.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:06 am 
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Haha, it is so funny. When the game first came out (and before) everyone was going on how there was no way tri-color builds would be viable and so far it seems some of these tri-color builds are the cream of the crop and I can't think of a single tri-color that I would consider being really bad or unplayable. There may be some builds that are not so hot (I have scrapped plenty of ideas) but there's a really good build for any tri-color and some are amazing.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:13 pm 
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I'd say this year's card list is better for mixing colors than for running mono-decks. You'll definitely miss something if you decide to stick to 1 clolor. Maybe it was intended by WotC.

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