It should be noted that Creepy Doll will not get exiled by Anger of the Gods because three damage from a red source wouldn't cause it to die.

Thanks, guys!

I'm curious if anyone has tried a Kiln Fiend/Guttersnipe build in multiplayer yet. I've been blowing through single player with it, but of course that's a much more forgiving environment. I can imagine scenarios where it's able to overcome instant removal and tokens, but I can imagine a lot of things that don't end up happening in reality.

Side note: Happy to be back on a DotP forum! I bowed out after I tired of Sealed in 2014, since the negativity in the main forum was just overwhelming for what should be a fun pastime. This place seems nice, though!

Welcome!

I did. I had a crazy build that just kept taking down the AI in 4-5 turns, which was great for unlocking. However, people are quite a bit better than the AI. I took it into multiplayer, won a few games against tokens, lifegain and a ramp without issue. Then, I ran into control, which just destroyed it.

I really think you people need to try my Izzet deck that wins via Talrand/Guttersnipe, but has the necessary protection and doesn't try to combo off with Fiend plus Dodge. Here it is, slightly updated:

4 x Izzet Guildgate
12 x Island
7 x Mountain

4 x Shock
4 x Vapor Snag

4 x Krenko's Command
4 x Voyage's End
4 x Think Twice
4 x Nullify
1 x Volcanic Geyser

3 x Guttersnipe
3 x Dissolve

2 x Talrand, Sky Summoner
2 x Inspiration

1 x Stormbreath Dragon

1 x Charmbreaker Devils


I do think there is a viable Fiend deck, but the ones I've seen look like they're two decks mashed together; on the one hand you want to combo off early with a Fiend, but on the other you want to control and stall via Guttersnipe/Talrand. Pick one and focus on it rather than smashing two concepts into one deck.

I don't see how having talrand and guttersnipes in a kiln fiend deck is "smashing two concepts together". I mean technically any deck is probably going to have more than 1 "concept" if you want to get really picky. Kiln Fiend is fast and what triggers the fiend also triggers guttersnipe and talrand. I'm not going to stall casting spells on my fiend for quick damage just because I want to wait on guttersnipes and talrand to hit the field as well. If they are there, all the merrier, if not then I'm not just gonna wait until they are. It is also nice to have them around in the cases where fiend doesn't show up.

Kiln Fiend is an aggressive card and wants you to be playing burn and cheap bounce to push through damage quickly and efficiently. It's an aggressive concept.

Guttersnipe and Talrand are cards that reward you for playing defensive spells and encourage you to protect your board position. It's a defensive concept.

Guttersnipe could probably have a home in the aggressive Kiln Fiend deck, I'll concede, but Talrand is way too slow. If I were to brew a Kiln Fiend deck I would most certainly be playing a full playset of Pestermites to tap blockers and push through damage in the air, why isn't anyone doing that? Perhaps I should brew it...

Talrand isn't all that slow. It isn't like I have to wait til T8 to get talrand on the board and it is going to be T3 before you even get a shot with kiln fiend (which would be the earliest turn you would be able to cast pestermite as well). I mean if we use your logic nothing should cost more than 2-3 cmc because it is too slow? I don't see Talrand as being a "purely defensive" card by any means. A couple turns after he is out, if you are casting spells, he will have tokens flying over head being very offensive. Don't get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with your philosophy to not use talrand and make it even quicker, but to say he is too slow and too defensive is stretching it a bit imo.

If Plan A is to lay quick beats with Kiln Fiend, then yes, above 3CMC is generally too slow.

4 x Izzet Guildgate
10 x Island
10 x Mountain
4 x Shock
4 x Kiln Fiend
2 x Void Snare
2 x Voyage's End
4 x Think Twice
4 x Scroll Thief
3 x Cunning Sparkmage
2 x Anger of the Gods
4 x Bolt of Keranos
3 x Dissolve
2 x Inspiration
2 x Talrand, Sky Summoner


Another variation of the spellheavy Izzet deck. It's a little more defensive and doesn't use the risky and situational Artful Dodge, but of course it can still explode if they leave Kiln Fiend unchecked. Actually the main reason for Kiln Fiend over Guttersnipe is the lower mana cost. He fits the curve better and he IS a threat they have to deal with.

One card I didn't see in any other deck is Scroll Thief. I think it's a decent blocker against aggro and can draw quite a few cards. We're trying to eliminate blockers for Kiln Fiend anyway, so why not replace the spells at the same time.

Cunning Sparkmages are good against tokens and their presence helps pushing the Scroll Thief past a 2/2 blocker without using a spell.

I already explained the inclusion of Kiln Fiend over Guttersnipe. Talrand over Guttersnipe is debatable, but I much prefer Talrands ability. It provides more defense and has more damage potential in the long run. The deck survives well enough to afford a slightly higher cost for the better card.

Why no Vapor Snag? Because I wanna have a way to bounce enchantments (there are really powerful ones this time) and I think scry is worth one more mana.

I'm all about picking a theme or concept and sticking to it but I think you are taking this to the extreme, lol. Although a 3 cmc or less Izzet build would probably be very viable and quite nasty. Having a Plan B isn't the worst thing in the world though. ;P

Charmbreaker Devils is an excellent plan B because it can kill your opponent in one shot and provides CA otherwise. Once you go to 6CMC, though, you should play Talrand and drop the Fiends.

I could be wrong, but I really think that the Snipe/Talrand decks and the Fiend decks are different.

Test my Fiendless build and help me improve it.

Tried your build Hakeem and I likes it

Hakeem I respect your understanding of themes, but we have a very limited card pool to deal with.

The theoretical 3 CMC or less Izzet deck suffers from a problem of threat density. No matter how hugely they are pumped, relying on 4 kiln fiends as your sole threats is simply not enough. One shock will shut you down. If you throw down a kiln fiend, your opponent will be forced to do the following:
A) Use removal on it;
B) Leave 2 or more blockers behind at all times.
Even a fairly control-oriented deck with kiln fiends should be able to outrace players that are running more conventional decklists. Think of the impact that kiln fiends have on the board not only directly, but by shaping your opponent's perception of your own game plan.

Guttersnipe and Talrand use a different mechanic, but fundamentally they are threats that synergize extremely well with instants and sorceries. Kiln fiend is simply the most dangerous 2 drop in the format and can protect your other threats by acting as a removal magnet, at the very worst.

Are there thematically "purer" kiln fiend builds out there? Why yes, but not really in the Duels 2015 card pool. There are no cards on the power level of goblin guide available to smash face in early. I need to spend some more time playtesting, but what I have said above is a defense of my admittedly inelegant decklist.

Yeah it's certainly a bit of fun; Nullify is pretty powerful in this format.

I beat a guy earlier this evening by letting his Arbor Colossus resolve, then bouncing it on the next turn with Monstrosity on the stack to wreck his whole turn and Snipe him for two. I let it resolve again, waited a turn, and bounced in response to Monstrosity again. Then I Nullified it on the way back out. I completely wrecked his progression for five turns in a row and did six damage off Guttersnipe.

God, I love playing control!

Good to see you over here, HenWen, you're one of my favorite posters.

I have built my Izzet decklist without Kiln Fiend because of the reasons you state; Shock can shut you down and you run out of resources if you don't draw it on time. My point is that Kiln Fiend is an aggressive card and should be backed up by cards that enable an aggressive strategy. Jamming the Fiend into a deck and trying to "combo off" will win you games, but it isn't consistent and it's easy to play around. Kiln Fiend also doesn't synergize well with counterspells (because it's aggressive).

Guttersnipe and Talrand, however, aren't aggressive cards on their own; they reward you for disrupting your opponent and protecting your board position. They both synergize extremely well with counterspells (because they're defensive). Sure Talrand's Drake tokens are aggressive, but the process of creating them is defensive in nature.

The Kiln Fiend deck is probably a viable Izzet deck, but I don't think it will have the consistency and reliability of my control build. It will be swingy, capable of blowouts, but also very capable of being blown out.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that Guttersnipe and Talrand synergize really well in a defensive Izzet control deck. I've built it, I've tested it, and it works.

Blasted Lands
U/R

8 Mountain
8 Island
4 Izzet Guildgate


4 x Think Twice
3 x Negate
3 x Nullify
2 x Talrand, Sky Summoner
2 x Thident of Bhasa
4 x Archaeomancer
1 x Time Warp

3 x Guttersnipe
3 x Cunning Sparkmage
3 x Tectonic Rift
4 x Demolish
1 x Stormbreath Dragon
1 x Inferno Titan
2 x Charmbreaker Devils

4 x Goblin Electromancer

Copy this deck and get ready to be called every name in the book. Have fun!
Edit: The name calling gets pretty bad if you go first, play an electromancer on turn 2, then a demolish or tectonic rift on turn 3...

Get those Radiant Fountains out of there and I'll think about it.

Gone, Just replaced them with 2 each of the basic.

Hell, if you want to go further on the land destruction, you could put in the Simic and Gruul Guildgates and add Mold Shambler.