I regularly do stupid things. It's almost like a hobby to me.



Just to clarify: for B3, are you suggesting a list plus user-entered field ? If so, I can't do that - one or the other but not both.

Hey, this is a hobby forum, you go for it.

And yes, that is exactly what I was suggesting. That is unfortunate. Hrm. I now pronounce this one a "toughie" and excuse myself while I think on it (or don't think on it, we'll see where life takes me).

Confusing.

Putting in layman for explain even though both are quite in depth topics:

Cis : You were born as the gender you identify with.

Genderqueer : 'Non-binary' sounds complicated, but really its as simple as "not one of two choices'. GQ could mean they see themselves as both genders, no gender, or a third gender entirely.

I'm cis female, and I'm personally offended when people automatically assume I'm male. Male is not the default gender, it's at most half the species. Being female is not abnormal. I should not have to constantly remind people that humans are not automatically male. "He" is not gender-neutral, it specifically excludes everyone who isn't male. I absolutely hate the attitude that male terms can be used to "include" females while systematically excluding us or pretending we don't exist or aren't valid geeks.

On a non-personal level it also bothers me when cis genders are treated as the default.


A: Do we keep the Gender field?
Yes please. I'm sick of being called "he" and I don't want to guess wrong about others.

A2: If so, what do the valid choices need to be?
A3: Or, does there even need to be a list of choices?
I don't know if it should be an open field or a menu. I request that if it is a menu, cis male, cis female, male, female, trans male, and trans female should all be on there.

B: Do we add a "Preferred Pronoun" field?
Yes, please. He and she may be obvious for most males and females, but I don't know what to call non-binary people.

B2: If so, what do the valid choices need to be?
At least include he, she, zie, they, it, my name, and blank.

What is fae?

B3: Or, does there even need to be a list of choices?
Yes. An open field might be nice, but with a menu you can add a hovor-over feature that shows the full conjugation.

Please make both Gender and Pronoun fields visible on the sidebar unless they're left blank.

I just try and avoid ever saying he or she on the internet. Has worked very well so far.

fae is just another pronoun set, like: This is Bob; fae loves to play Magic.

The problem with fae is that it's usually used as a noun because magic.

@Fire: I wasn't thinking of having the "identity" field in addition. It's just a space where, like the location field, people can share some extra info. For some people it'd be gender, for others it'd be transhumanist or robot.

I think the main problem of having a drop-down box is that you'd still end up excluding people. The main problem with an open field for pronouns is that it might get abused. Opening up the definition of that box might make any "abuse" (since entering robot has been brought up as abuse) less harmful.

I agree completely. Which I admit is also at odds with my "don't use 'they' as a singular pronoun" comment that I posted earlier. I especially agree with the last part, about people who think women can't be "real" geeks/nerds. (Yes, I have a lot of grammar pet peeves, and some of them are contradictory.)





Agreed. Unfortunately, overcoming this one has more work to do than just overcoming English's stupidity of a gender-neutral pronoun. And as an adjunct to this, I also dislike when people say "cis is the norm" or similar. Because that says being cis-gendered is normal, which implies being otherwise isn't normal. I haven't personally found a good solution yet, other than to say being cis-gendered is the majority. (And there's a whole side conversation about whether or not that's even true, but if we want to go there we can move it to a new thread in the Off-Topic Room.)



Until this is in place to help me out, I shall do my best to remember to use "she" should we ever cross paths on the forum.



That list, plus <blank> and "I prefer not to say", look to be a great starting point.



Welder, since you'd be implementing the coding for this: How difficult is it to make a "hover over" for the pronoun field that gives the whole list, maybe even with an example sentence for each? So for example: I might choose "he" in the list, then on my profile there to left, hovering over the word "he" would give a box that said something like:



Or something like that.

A potential list, as a starting point:

He / His / Him
She / Her / Her
They / Their / Them
Zie / Zir / Zin
Fae / Faer / Faen
<My Name>
<blank>



Ah! Thanks for the clarification. Interesting idea, and worth having on the table as well. What do others think of this as an "instead of" option?


Thank you for the input, all. I'd still like to here from more people, please.

Everything proposed thus far in the thread is very feasible.

Except for this?

I try to use either the gender neutral singular they or simply use the person's screen name until I know there preference.

For example we cross paths a lot in Other Games Lilystorm, but I didn't know your gender or preference for the longest time. I saw other people say 'he' a few times but based on your avatar and several of your posts I wasnt sure so I simply stuck to saying 'Lily' or nothing at all rather than risk offence.

Ironically, now I know your preference but the habit is still there to remain vague and I find myself still doing that by default.

Sometimes I get tripped up by somebody's avatar or name. I need to make it a more conscious habit to use they. But every forum has at least one grammar police who will go on at length about how improper they is and how "neutral" he is.

I think it makes sense to have a list of preferred pronouns. Allowing people to indicate a pronoun they wish being referred to with reduces "passive oppression".

If this was my website I would not include a spot for selecting gender identity. There are many things people may consider important to communicate to others, but these things are not generally built into forum programming. For instance, if I want people to know I am cis, know that I am handicapped, know my ethnicity, know what level of education I have, know my economic status, etc, it is really up to me to make that effort. I see no particular reason why a gaming website should bear the burden of communicating personal details that generally have no relevance to the nature of the site, or why gender identity is singled out as especially relevant. (Beyond the need to specify a pronoun, which can be done independently). If these things are important, there might be some other part of the profile (such as the signature) where one can communicate personalized information.

I don't even understand why there is a location field. A gender identity field strikes me as a a can of worms that doesn't even need to be opened.

I would like to add my opinion and say that I think that having something akin to the location field in addition to a list would be better as there will always be someone who is miffed that the list doesn't have exactly what he/she identifies as. For those who fall neatly into a category, the list works well. For those who would like to specify what they are or what they may be, the open field works well. Also, adding a type of "unsure" option to the list could be a good idea. I started to read the first page, but then I got kind of lazy and just skimmed through the rest. So if this problem has already been solved just ignore my comment.

Edit: Oh, and if only one is available I suggest the open field option over the list option as, like I said, there will always be someone who will request another label be added to the list while the open field will give someone the freedom to put exactly what he/she feels. For those who don't know what they identify as, they probably wouldn't know what to choose from anyway. There are also some people who don't like to be labeled in the traditional sense and trying to create a list to accommodate them would be troublesome.

I suspect that there are a variety of reasons people put their location or want it displayed. For example, maybe they don't want folks to assume they're from the U.S. or from the West in general, or they want it to be easier to find gamers in their area. Or they use that field to display something else like their current mental state. Or it helps them establish an online persona that is partly fictionalized.

Or because it's fun.

If people are abusing the freedom given by an open field then just let them know it is a punishable offense and that any further abuse will lead to appropriate actions by moderators. Gender identity and preferred pronouns are to be taken seriously just like religion and culture. If someone wants to be called robot... well... I'm really sorry to say this but... suck it up. It is simply impossible to accommodate everyone. That is unless, of course, you truly believe you should be called robot. If that's the case then I don't know what to do; there's not many people that believe they are robots, and I don't have any experience with such situations. I guess I would suggest talking to a therapist.

The truth is that any information like a person's username or location can be abused and will, eventually, be abused. I believe the benefits outweigh the risks in this case. This is all just my opinion, and I acknowledge I could be totally wrong about this.

Oops, missed that. Yeah, can't do multiple field types.