I assume Aaarrrgh and SE is a spy. Because Aaarrrgh rejected the second mission, I assume there was two missions on it. SE is one of them, I do not think Zherog is another. I had to exclude SE as well as either seTiny or you, and more or less arbitrarily chose you.
Not to say that I trust razorborne, but he hasn't given me as much to go by, so I'm pursuing the Aaarrrgh train of thought instead.

Man, been busy and all of a sudden there's a lot to catch up on. Catching up now....

~SE++

Roaring Mouse ended up doing this a bit in the games I ran as well (from what I remember), so this seems par for the course. I'd like to read more into it, but.... well, as I said, nothing unusual, it happens.


So, bentz shot down a Team Proposal he was on just to gather more info but backtracks to say he actually liked the grouping? Yeah, this doesn't sit well with me. Personally, it looks like he's trying to get it down to his final proposal so he can force us into his team. I was dubious about him at first, but this really makes me weary of his involvement.

Okay, I was mistaken then, my apologies. I just recalled two people suggesting him and then he gets really flaky about the Missions and downvotes them and it made me nervous. Also, I agree Zherog is dangerous to take on Missions, and as always, altimis just gives me a bad vibe since he's so damn hard to read. I still can't decide if it's a beneficial thing or not. For the player, I guess it's good because people are unsure and he can keep them off their game, but it sucks for the Town / Resistance / White Hats who are trying to work with him.

My thoughts on that are that Mown is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If he makes a team with himself, it's most likely to be voted "no." That removes more chances for the Resistance to get a good team to go through. So, now he has to choose the automatic "no" of putting himself on the team, or the probable "no" of excluding himself from the team and going with anyone else outside of Mission 1. If we downvote his Mission Proposal, we're left with Roaring Mouse and bentz, two players who have had little involvement thus far and who are wildcards. Though, bentz is playing it strange and I'm a little weary of him (as noted above), so if Mown's team is voted to not go, I think I'll have to basically vote "yes" on Roaring Mouse's team, which is a scary thought.

Oh look, a listing of most of my least favorite people right now. Both Roaring Mouse and bentz voted for Mission 1 to go through, which ended in failure, and both of them have voted "no" since then and they're both up for creating teams themselves before this Mission is over, unless we accept the Mission Team from a guy who was on the first failed Mission of the game. And as razor notes right after, Zherog has a pretty damn good chance of being Scum as well. I don't have much of an opinion of seTiny as of yet, but this team looks like a lot of bad news all rolled into one.

Really? Because from where I'm sitting razor has been one of the most active and intelligent players so far, completely transparent on his thinking and giving more info than any one other player in the singular pursuit of trying to figure out who is Scum / Spy / Black Hat.

----------------------------------------

Okay, with all that out of the way, I don't see a good way out of this. Mown was on the failed Mission, and now he's proposing Roaring Mouse and bentz, who are also downvoting Mission Proposals until they are the ones we're stuck with, which feels very.... trapping. Don't have a better word for it, but hopefully you get what I mean. I'll probably be voting "no" on this proposal, but then that leaves me with two people who have been biding their time until it's their turn to propose a Mission, which could be incredibly bad for Town.

~SE++

He's saying that he wasn't comfortable with the team until he knew how people voted for it. There's no backtracking about it, it's completely legit.


I can't help that you're okay with literally only one person in the game.


I'm saying that razorborne doesn't have any strong ties to other players like aaarrrgh does, so assuming he is a spy doesn't help me in composing a mission. Especially as his theory primarily comes from assuming that I'm a spy.


What do you mean with "also downvoting"? I have done nothing of the sort, not to mention that this is just an assumption on your part and not even necessarily true.

I'm saying they are.

~SE++

I agree here, out of the mission 1 people I think razorborne has been doing the most scum hunting. He's probably also has one of the higher post counts in this thread.

al·so
in addition; too.

Which means the sentence either implied that 1) Someone else is also downvoting missions to make someone else host them, or 2) They are downvoting missions, in addition to (presumably) something else detrimental. By process of elimination, I arrived at point 1.

grammar nitpicking is great.

I read that as "they're on the mission, and they're also doing a scummy thing"

Well, I didn't. I was primarily bothered by how he was talking in absolutes about it, but I also though the wording was pretty strange.
Chances are I would have responded in a more understanding manner if he wasn't acting so damn smug about it.

I'll accept that my response could be mildly misleading though, so if you want the more explicit version, it would be:
"What do you mean with "also downvoting"? If you're implying that I have done such, then that's incorrect. Besides, your accusations against bentz and mouse are just theories, and not nearly as solid as your statement makes it out to be."

so you didn't downvote Squinty's proposal?

and as for the fact that things are theories, yeah, that's how deception games work. and unless you're referring to a different section that I'm not seeing in his post, his point on bentz is littered with "to me"s and "personally"s that absolutely imply that he's aware he's not stating facts. could you point to where he makes direct, concrete statements that imply that he believes he's stating facts and not his opinions?

or, perhaps, are you referring directly to the statement "Roaring Mouse and bentz, who are also downvoting Mission Proposals until they are the ones we're stuck with"? because, again, this can be resolved with a little grammar and vocabulary. the fact is that, no matter what Mouse and Bentz's intentions are, a) they have both voted no on both proposed missions, and b) if this one is rejected as well, they will be the two remaining nominators before detonation. you're inferring intent from Squinty's statement ("Mouse and bentz are downvoting missions, with the goal of forcing the town to accept their nominations.") but an equally valid reading implies no intent, just causality. ("Mouse and bentz are downvoting missions, and the end result of that continuing to happen is that we will have to accept their nominations.") which is a factual statement. it's what will happen if this mission fails. we'll have to accept either Mouse or bentz's nomination. whether or not that is why they're downvoting, that's what will happen if we do downvote. the further accusation, where he says it "feels very trapping" is stated as a feeling rather than a fact. once that's established, he does say "but then that leaves me with two people who have been biding their time until it's their turn to propose a Mission", which is worded as a statement of fact, but in the context of the previous assertion of suspicion I don't feel it's unreasonable to interpret it as an extension of that feeling, rather than its own separate accusation that needs to be properly qualified.

I'm heading out now and won't be online again for a while. I have sent Neo my vote for this round, and gave him loose instructions on how I would vote for Proposal 4, as well as a definite "yes" to Proposal 5 if we have to go there, just in case I don't have time to properly vote while traveling.

~SE++

Also, you're feelings are cute. Are you feeling rustled?

~SE++

I didn't [read it that way].


The wording felt heavy handed, and I feel like he's artificially devaluing their opinions. It's more the change in tone between the two quotes, but it might just be a difference in writing style that I'm not accustomed to, relative to my own. Or maybe I do it as well and I'm not self consicous enough, but I don't think so.

Anyway, I can concede that my prejudice against SE might have made me jump the gun when reading his post, so can we conclude this post here, because I don't think this point is of particular worth arguing about?

You'd be surprised.
I'm going to assume your doing it on purpose now.

I try to stay on top of all the posts but it can be difficult since most people posts during the day. Plus I forget that times are normally posted in EST. I'm quite forgetful.



I'm not stalling for my mission proposal. If I wanted to be on a team I would have voted yes on your (Squinty's) team. Then I would have had a better chance of proposing the next four person team. If I was a spy there would be no advantage to rejecting a proposed team that I was on. In fact it would have been better if it had passed. A similar argument can be made for bentz.



Can you explain why Zherog has a 50% chance of being a spy?

this isn't necessarily true. if, for instance, you and bentz are both spies, it may be in your best interest to avoid being on Squinty's mission together, since you risk crossed wires. it's much safer to wait until you get your own proposal and nominate a group to your liking.

it's based on my theory that Aaargh and Mown are both spies and wanted the first proposal to fail. in that case, it follows that the third spy voted no as well. since Alt and Zherog where the only two outside the mission who voted no, it follows that one of them is a spy. the 50% thing was a bit of shorthand, as I personally think Alt is the more likely spy of the two, although if that's true and my theory's right then Mown, a spy, built an all-town team, which seems implausible. maybe he expected people to be suspicious of him and vote down whatever he proposed, so he put four townies together to throw suspicion on them, but the more Occam-y answer says that Zherog is probably a spy if my theory is correct. fortunately, we can avoid both forever if we want, and until I get indications that that's not what we want I will be in favor of doing so.

Except... that seems to be implying that Black Hats can coordinate their actions.

which part?

This:



Basically, I don't see how the "it follows" works unless Black Hats are coordinating. (We know it's possible, if they wish to attempt to embed hidden messages for example. So I'm not accusing them of PMing or whatever.)

it doesn't require communication, just knowledge of alignments, which spies do have. outspy knows there's two spies on the team. they're the only one off the team who knows that, and also the only one who doesn't want that. (no one but me seems to believe that two spies on a team isn't a big deal, so I'm operating on the assumption that people think it is and behave accordingly.) outspy would know that Aaargh was bluffing, trying to put together a team that misleads on the assumption that it'll fail anyway. so outspy, if they're paying attention, knows that the mission should really fail, even if Aaargh hasn't actually told them anything unobvious.

I don't know if it's a big deal or not. This is my first game.

The argument against having two, if I've understood correctly, is that because there's no way to coordinate there's a very big risk of both spies voting to fail a mission. That then outs 2/3rd of the group as spies, rather than leaving things vague like they are.

And thanks for clarifying.