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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:14 pm 
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This is just what I have for right now, I'm still working on more to add.
part 1
part 2
Szetsh Unnalm

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Last edited by Reality Glitch on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:54 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:14 am 
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Mmkay, I'll do some in-line critique and review for you.
As a prelude, it's a bit rough, most of these are grammatical corrections, but it has promise, though quite honestly there are going to be some issues which I'll discuss when we get to them.

part 1

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:22 pm 
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I wasn’t sure exactly how nightstalkers worked, but I’m glad that’s the only narrative error. I’ll be sure to fix the grammatical ones.

I've updated the first post with the rest of the story.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:54 pm 
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@Reality Glitch: There is an outside chance I will be able to get to part two tonight, but it might not be until Tuesday, depending on certain factors. I have read part one, but since you now have part two up, I will withhold comments until I finish it. I just wanted you to know that I will get to this, when life allows.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:50 pm 
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In that case, I've put up a bio as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:43 pm 
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I'm going to drop my specific thoughts on the story here and my general ones in the voting thread.




This line:
Quote:
In addition to the trials that had taken place earlier that day, and for most of the week, the last task was for each to choose an item from the relics the chieftain presented each youth.

Reads so incredibly awkwardly that it may as well be the last portion (after that last comma) alone. I'd suggest streamlining this to something like "The last task of the trials they had been through[...]".

--------

This line begins the second paragraph of the entire story:
Quote:
After about half of the passing adolescents were called up it was finally Szetsh's turn.

But it feels so terribly out of place because you don't provide any sense of time passing. It was "finally" his turn after three sentences. You just kind of gloss over the supposed other adolescents that were in these trials, being called up, without so much as a musing look into Szetsh's thoughts. It would have been an excellent moment of exposition dump, to go over his thoughts on either the trials, or his fellows.

--------

Let's talk about this paragraph:
Quote:
“The iron people” was the tribe’s term for those from Verkell. It was no news that they’d been expanding in the waste in search of more of their precious iron, and the few mana leyline crosspoints scattered across the waste like that which the Unnalm built their tribe’s village around. There was an ongoing mission to find another before the iron people found their current location, but they were too late; they were already found.

That second sentence is trying to convey four separate ideas (the Iron People expanding, their search for iron, their search for leylines, and the tribe's building of a village on a crossroads) and comes across as a scattered mess because of it. I think it would flow much better as two separate sentences, unless you can get it to flow much more elegantly. The third sentence is similarly trying to convey multiple sentences' worth of information, and I daresay the portion after the semicolon could be dropped altogether.

--------

These lines:
Quote:
One of the wagons rode up to chieftain’s tent and out stepped a fox enveloped in a baloth hide cape and fedora. His face was covered with a bandana, and it was clear that his entire outfit was a dark, unsettling red.

Confuse me greatly. "It was clear he wore red"? What is that even supposed to mean? Are the rattlers in your story color-blind and your saying "even to these snakes it was clear he was wearing red"? The whole description doesn't coalesce properly in my mind, since you blaze over the details so fast. I wonder if you just are having trouble properly articulating a clear vision for others who do not see that vision.

--------

The conversation between the chieftain and the fox just feels incredibly awkward: it seems to be a stereotypical portrayal of Settlers vs. Native Americans rather than the conversation between two real characters (or two fully realized characters, if you'd prefer). The chieftains responses in particular were rote and robotic.

--------

The conversation between Szetsh and his mother is also incredibly horrid since you opt for the "brutal uneducated savage-speak." There are typos in there that I'm not going to list because I don't like how you characterize the two (and, by extension, all snake-folk or at least the wild ones).

Ugh, and then you go super-stereotypical (in an entirely different way, no less!) when his parents converse.

--------

This line:
Quote:
Szetsh’s chin came to just above his father’s midsection.

I don't think works because the rattlers are, say it with me, snake-people. They don't have legs. They would not have a definable "midsection" because they could raise themselves up or lower themselves down to change their height. A better descriptor would be relative size or length, I feel; like that Szetsh was half his father's size or something.

--------

You say that Szetsh's talk with the rock
Quote:
This went on for several hours. It was just after sunset now and the caravan was setting up tents for the night.

So the caravan basically didn't move? I mean, you had given me the impression that the whole village was on the move, searching for another place to settle down, yet he's able to sit by a cactus talking with a rock for hours and not be left behind or at least have to follow along?

--------

This:
Quote:
Szetsh awoke in the reptilian-equivalent of a cold sweat.

Sounds lazy to me; like instead of trying to imagine what a reptile would do in such a situation, you resort to equating it to a human biological mechanism (while still maintaining that it's not something a reptile would experience). This kind of line can work, but I often find it in more comedic moments, not when you're trying to amp up the tension.

--------

Quote:
“run….” He managed to wheeze before falling face down in the dirt revealing the third degree burn that exposed his spine.

Besides being improperly capitalized, there are two reasons you don't want to say "third degree burn": one, this is a fantasy setting, and that is a very specific (and relatively new by my understanding) human medical term, so it takes a reader out of the moment; two, if you are trying to portray these rattlers as uncivilized savages, then using the term when there's not some sort of Verkell doctor around to proclaim it or to hear it from his perspective, then it also ruins the flow because you've already established that those characters wouldn't have the know-how to recognize something like that.

--------

The issue of snake anatomy comes up again in the finale, where you say "he sat up". It doesn't feel lazy this time so much as it was a slip of the tongue from being used to humanoid characters.




Typo:
Quote:
one of the lookouts came screaming into their mists

"Midst".

Typo:
Quote:
The fox pulled the dagger from the chieftain’s gut, it was clear that it actually his hand forming a shadowy blade.

Missing a "was" between "it" and "actually".

Typo:
Quote:
Anyone and anything I find hear afterwards

"Find here".

Probably a typo:
Quote:
It had been a rough couple of relocating and a new place still wasn’t found.

Probably you meant to say "a rough couple of days".

Typo:
Quote:
much to his parents dismay.

Should be "parents' " with an apostrophe after the s.

Typos:
Quote:
By now Szetsh had wondered off and has sitting by cactus conversing with his the gemstone again.

Should be "wandered" instead of "wondered", and should be "was sitting by a cactus" instead of "has sitting by cactus".

Typo:
Quote:
your’s


Typo:
Quote:
who had been so understanding of Szetsh’s claim that Wish-Maker had voice,

Should be "that Wish-Maker had a voice".

Counting two typos for this one:
Quote:
That wasn’t the only thing that came, most of the other figures were the iron people who started the conflagration and where now attacking the tribe.

That first comma should be a period and this made into two sentences. Also, should be "were now" instead of "where now".

Typo:
Quote:
Oh, was this your?


Typos. Typos everywhere.
Quote:
“Well its mine now, what wonders this could bring I’ll have to let my auramancer extract its essence before I grind the stone and sell it ‘star dust’. Fake obviously, but people will buy anything. OUCH!!!!” Szetsh had taken the monologue as an opportunity to bit Thomas’s ankles, causing him to drop the stone. Before Szetsh could grab though, Thomas punted him a couple feet. “You little pipsqueak, how dare you!” He turned to some of his men and shouted, “Tar him!” As cauldron was brought above his head Szetsh curld up into a ball and waited for whatever tarring someone meant.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:21 pm 
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Okay, I am finally ready to comment on this. I have to give a similar warning as Barinellos did: this is going to get pretty rough. Because of that, I want to stress one thing right off the bat, and I'll ask you to keep this in mind as you progress through my comments. Both the story itself and you as a writer have good potential for development, and we as a community want to help with that development.

Now, on to the show:

Spoiler


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:37 pm 
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With Raven sweeping in and being his usual eloquent self, exercising much more manners than I, he reminds me that I need to offer encouragement as well as critique.

If I may explain my position a tad more, and perhaps even a bit toward why I responded so critically: as the official Archivist and also as someone who makes it his personal mission to read every work that comes through a vote (or at the very least as many as I can manage), then seeing a story so obviously unpolished submitted for vote after less than a day of being up for reading at all, pushed a personal button. Had you waited a week, maybe two, and done some editing in response to multiple people's feedback, maybe even expanding the story, then I would not have been as harsh in my criticism, and I apologize if I went overboard.

There are still, regardless, three major problems with this story that I feel must be addressed.

  • The first, and what I find most personally insulting, is the language. Specifically of the snake-folk, which I addressed in one or both of my posts, are painted in a highly racist manor akin to the way most movies of the Old West treated "injuns". It's generally frowned upon to try and characterize a supposed "savage" race or peoples by having them speak broken English, but it becomes problematic when the race in question are a stand-in for people who have been historically oppressed. With Jakkard being our Wild West plane, your rattlers are obviously supposed to be Native American stand-ins, and that is not a subject that should be tackled lightly.
  • Second is pacing. As I stated and as Raven somewhat explained, you have problems in getting your story to flow measurably, with some important factors flying by in a blur while other unimportant facts are left standing alone as if they require the reader's attention. This is much easier to fix but you still might need a few revisions to get it nailed down.
  • Last is, as Raven politely stated, you need to go through and proofread your writing. Writing in a word processor like Microsoft Word, LibreOffice, or Google Docs helps partially since they catch misspellings as well as a limited amount of grammar mistakes. Even if I didn't have the above issues, I would still have voted Not As Is because of the large amount of typos.

However, despite all that, there are some good points that I would like to see expanded. Overall, one thing I feel this story suffers from in that it covers what would otherwise be a good story is a sense of generic-ness that I'd love to see you break out of. It feels like you're hitting a checklist of plot points -- villain shows up, disrupts way of life, things only get worse instead of better -- that kind of covers up the interesting things that you have included.

Raven is right when he says Szetsh's relationship with the stone and the descent into madness is interesting, but you don't actually spend any time developing that or giving us glimpses into his mindset. By the time you really dig into that he's already been fully taken, and I would love to see a more of before and after as the stone takes hold of his thoughts more and more.

While I criticized the villain's presentation -- and as far as actions, he is a very typical mustache-twirling action-shounen villain -- you did capture my attention in those rewritten lines concerning what he is. I want to know: why is he worse than a nightstalker? What atrocities has he committed? Do demons really fear him, and for his power or his cruelty? What magics does he wield? And perhaps most importantly,* does he ever bathe?

There were a few moments when you kind-of explored the alien physiology of the rattlers, and that's something that always catches my attention. If you keep that sense of other-ness more prevalent, and I mean the alien bodies, perhaps their turns of phrase and the fact that they're in a fantasy world, not just the sense that they speak differently, then you could really have something in that.

*Not really; I just followed through the "dress was white when I bought it" line.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:24 pm 
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I've only skimmed the story and the comments, but since Raven asked:

Domesticated basilisks are actually a HUGE part of Rattler culture and a major, major difference between city dwellers (their basilisks were butchered early on during the Refugee period by the foxes in a [successful] attempt to totally obliterate Rattlers as a viable political faction). So, I'm glad to see domesticated basilisks here. Again, I'm skimming so I don't have a good sense of their use in-narrative, but that part of the history of the plane is ripe for exploration in my opinion and if it's explored here, that'll make me happy. (In part because honestly I was really, really proud of how the sordid history of exploitation and cultural genocide that Verkell suffers from turned out.)

As far as inventing new rituals go, I'm cool with that. That was a deliberate absence in the style guide. That said, I want to take time to consider the respectfulness of the treatment which... well, others have already covered the language thing and why it's offensive, so I won't belabor the point here. But yeah, Rattler religious beliefs and religious beliefs on the plane in general are built-in blank space designed to be explored via stories.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:26 pm 
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I've only skimmed the story and the comments, but since Raven asked:

Domesticated basilisks are actually a HUGE part of Rattler culture and a major, major difference between city dwellers (their basilisks were butchered early on during the Refugee period by the foxes in a [successful] attempt to totally obliterate Rattlers as a viable political faction). So, I'm glad to see domesticated basilisks here. Again, I'm skimming so I don't have a good sense of their use in-narrative, but that part of the history of the plane is ripe for exploration in my opinion and if it's explored here, that'll make me happy. (In part because honestly I was really, really proud of how the sordid history of exploitation and cultural genocide that Verkell suffers from turned out.)

As far as inventing new rituals go, I'm cool with that. That was a deliberate absence in the style guide. That said, I want to take time to consider the respectfulness of the treatment which... well, others have already covered the language thing and why it's offensive, so I won't belabor the point here. But yeah, Rattler religious beliefs and religious beliefs on the plane in general are built-in blank space designed to be explored via stories.

Thanks, Keeper.

In light of this, good job with the basilisks!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:02 pm 
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It seems I misunderstood what little information I found. I will rewrite the story according to your suggestion, but continuing to write further narrative for him will be a higher priority for now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:47 am 
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It seems I misunderstood what little information I found. I will rewrite the story according to your suggestion, but continuing to write further narrative for him will be a higher priority for now.

To be fair, I don't think you misunderstood too much, really. I mean, you understood the Snakes' use of the basilisks much better than I did! A lot of them are just things that you need to think about to bring the whole piece together. It's also important to keep in mind, as Keeper said, that development for the snakefolk is a good thing to see, and if that's something you want to tackle, awesome.

I look forward to seeing what you have in store for the future.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:28 am 
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That actually seems much more positive than I expected, thanks. The later stories will be in other threads so as not to overcrowd this one though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:22 pm 
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That actually seems much more positive than I expected, thanks. The later stories will be in other threads so as not to overcrowd this one though.

I mean it.

Always remember, critiques are directed at a work, not a person, and with the intent to help improve, not tear down. Keep reading, keep writing, and you'll keep improving.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:47 pm 
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Oh, and about the broken English, I'm so sorry, it was the firs thing that came to mind when thinking of "whar would a native American accent look like written down?" and I didn't think that all the way through, my deepest apologies.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Oh, and about the broken English, I'm so sorry, it was the firs thing that came to mind when thinking of "whar would a native American accent look like written down?" and I didn't think that all the way through, my deepest apologies.

It's a common trope. You're not the first to use it, and you won't be the last. The recognition that this is unintentionally toxic is becoming more prevalent, I feel, and we around here are especially sensitive when it comes to these subjects, so it sat a little off with a number of us.

As long as you can grow from the experience, there's no hard feelings and, ultimately, no harm done. I look forward to your growth should you choose to stick around.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Oh, and about the broken English, I'm so sorry, it was the firs thing that came to mind when thinking of "whar would a native American accent look like written down?" and I didn't think that all the way through, my deepest apologies.

Just as a note to consider in the future, it's actually better to not try to use accents. With non-native speakers of the language, you will COMPLETELY confuse them, and generally, you don't get a lot of positive out of it. What you'd want, rather than an accent, is to brush up on dialects. The way people speak, rather than the way people sound.

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:28 pm 
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Yeah, not to harp on the issue of the speech, because I genuinely believe you didn't intend it the way it reads, but this is just sort of a general piece of advice for writing. "Everything is done for a reason." In other words, don't take the choices you make in a narrative for granted. Take a moment to think about what something adds to a piece, or how it might possibly detract from it. I can't say I do this with absolutely everything in a piece, of course, but most of the decisions I make are for a reason, down to which of my characters will or will not use contractions when they speak, or common turns of phrases they like to use.

It really helps bring a character to life, little things like that.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:24 am 
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Word choice is a very good way to show the differences between dialects. This is also a technique that, used well, can help convey character personality, worldviews very unusual to the reader, and the alien psychology of nonhumans as well. For that matter it's important for setting the tone in narration.

Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings? JRRT paid a ton of attention to word choice to distinguish between the dialects of different characters, so that the Hobbits, High Elves, Sylvan Elves, Dwarves, Gondorrim, Rohirrim, Orcs, and Ents all sounded distinct. None of them spoke brokenly even when they were explicitly not familiar with the Westron tongue, but the stylistic differences still do a great job making them seem to speak different dialects.

It is possible to depict somebody making grammatical mistakes with a second language. If you've spent a lot of time online talking to folks who don't use English easily, you might get familiar with the distinct kinds of grammatical oddities that creep in. But it doesn't look like stereotypical broken pidgin English. It superficially resembles English that hasn't been proofread, and I expect it would be hard to counterfeit effectively. In this particular context (the Rattlers and Vash of Jakkard) I don't recommend trying.

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