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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:54 pm 
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Urg... just saw this article:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2014-07-09

Looks like we won't be seeing good removal anymore in Standard and Limited, outside of maybe rare. I really hope this backlashes on them and screws up limited and standard enough for them to stop and change their mind, but they've probably already completed Khans and sorta Theros under this sort of new direction, so we may be looking forward to a Standard with relatively anemic (and in some cases potentially expensive $ wise) removal options once RTR and M14 rotate.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:10 pm 
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Wizards is nerfing removal in limited, not Standard. Doom Blade and Banishing Light kill things just fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Doom Blade is leaving Standard with rotation. As is Ultimate Price, Abrupt Decay, Putrefy and Dreadbore.

Stuff we know we'll have post rotation: Reprisal, Plummet, Hero's Downfall, Asphyxiate, and Feast of Dreams.

That is just destroy effects of course.

And we're supposed to be mostly about limited here anyway. I don't think a removal pool like Theros block's and M15's is healthy for limited either. In Theros block I had hope it wasn't a trend, and was just a temporary thing to encourage us to use auras in limited, but not it is looking like they intend it as a long-term change. I'm not fond of Theros block's limited because it seems less skill based, and a ton more based on how good your rares were and how well they worked with the rest of your card pool, and how they stack up against what your current opponent's rares are. I have a feeling I won't like M15's limited, although I'll have to play it some to be sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:30 pm 
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Urg... just saw Looks like we won't be seeing good removal anymore in Standard and Limited, outside of maybe rare.


I just read that article. Something that I thought was interesting was hearing Marshall Sutcliffe's take on the Removal for the set.

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it makes the actual draft portion more interesting. In the old days, if you opened a premium removal spell, you felt obligated to take it. These days, you can have reasonable draft debates between quality threats and medium-strength removal. There will be times when it's correct to take the threat, and times when it's correct to take the removal as well.


I actually like this trend (at least for a little while). I agree that feeling forced to pick up a removal spells sometimes felt lame to me. and I admit that I enjoy a slower tempo in my magic games. What are your guys opinions on this view?


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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Removal is fine. Flesh to dust, Covenant of blood, lightning strike, hunt the weak, forge devil, crippling blight, and oppressive rays all at common is enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:45 am 
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Doom Blade is leaving Standard with rotation. As is Ultimate Price, Abrupt Decay, Putrefy and Dreadbore.

Stuff we know we'll have post rotation: Reprisal, Plummet, Hero's Downfall, Asphyxiate, and Feast of Dreams.

That is just destroy effects of course.

And we're supposed to be mostly about limited here anyway. I don't think a removal pool like Theros block's and M15's is healthy for limited either. In Theros block I had hope it wasn't a trend, and was just a temporary thing to encourage us to use auras in limited, but not it is looking like they intend it as a long-term change. I'm not fond of Theros block's limited because it seems less skill based, and a ton more based on how good your rares were and how well they worked with the rest of your card pool, and how they stack up against what your current opponent's rares are. I have a feeling I won't like M15's limited, although I'll have to play it some to be sure.


I heard this before, and I still don't agree. For me, Limited is about change, about learning new environments and making best use of resources available. In theory, the more complicated the board and the more tricks available, the more opportunities present themselves for a better player to outplay the less skilled one. Sure, bestow was overpowered before JINX joined the party, and BONG was just weak compared to Theros, but full block is a very good environment.

I'm also not sure what you mean by a removal pool like Theros? There was a lot of removal in Theros block. Sedge Scorpion and Pharika's Chosen; Magma Spray and Lightning Bolt; Banishing Light and Time to Feed; plus all the late-game common removal spells. I too think that an environment where a removal spell is not an automatic pick is more interesting. Do I take the Spray or the Skink? Maybe the Boar? Nessian Courser or Time to Feed? Dragon Mantle or Lightning Bolt? OK maybe that one is not hard :)

Flores makes a good point in his series: the game is about winning first. The tools don't matter. You can deck them or you can blitz them, you will get no extra style points.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:03 am 
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They also said that the playerbase doesn't like set like avacyn restored were common removal is efficient, but doesn't get the job done.

So generally you should have a couple of answer to bombs in a sealed pool.


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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:16 am 
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Avacyn restored had like one common removal spell in the whole set.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:05 am 
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Spoiler


So nothing is overcosted like fatal fumes or sip of hemlock, but good luck permanently killing something big.


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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:45 am 
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Death Wind was the only good removal spell in AVR. Everything else was garbage.

Tempo cards and combat tricks are not removal.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:18 am 
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What I was trying to say was that the mana cost was generally the right one for the effect, it's just that you didn't want the effect either because it was generally weak or it was weak again soulbond, and bouncing things in a format with soulbond sort of works like removal.


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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:14 pm 
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Bouncing things vs soulbond does not work like removal in anything but the loosest sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:59 pm 
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Read a couple articles on M15 limited today indicating that RED is actually good. Not sure if serious.

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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:34 pm 
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Urg... just saw this article:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2014-07-09

Looks like we won't be seeing good removal anymore in Standard and Limited, outside of maybe rare. I really hope this backlashes on them and screws up limited and standard enough for them to stop and change their mind, but they've probably already completed Khans and sorta Theros under this sort of new direction, so we may be looking forward to a Standard with relatively anemic (and in some cases potentially expensive $ wise) removal options once RTR and M14 rotate.


This has been their trend since after M13. I think it might have been Zac Hill (not fully sure) who convinced the rest of R&D to change so removal wasn't as easy to come by. There is an article out there somewhere but I can't find it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cato's m15 rundown
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Red has some good cards, but it's hampered by the large number of common 2/3s. Borderland Marauder is OP tho.

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