They were actually created by World not Eternity, but I think the Helix Pinnacle could still work! It's a cool visual. Maybe spirals in general are a thing for them--spiralling horns, spiralling pinnacles, spiralling dances... could be interesting. What's that Theresa Nielsen piece with the spiral in the art, again?
I similarly like the idea of them using horns as actual horns. It's weird but fascinating and really pushes the alien-factor for them, which I'm increasingly convinced is an envelope we should be pushing more.
Dancing in general and bull dancing specifically could be interesting... although maybe not bulls but Craghorns? That could be interesting and would tie into the move to the mountains that Barinellos is suggesting as a major change in their society.
Cornucopias would be another spiral visual we could play with there.
I almost think some Frank Lloyd Wright style architectural and design elements would be interesting for the Moonfolk, what with, I mean, obviously, the waterfalls, but on top of that the whole notion of the cosmos and the Heavenly Sphere leading to lots of vertical lines and circles and so on--I'm seeing a very geometric kind of setup there.
One other thought maybe worth exploring: Moonfolk as freshwater fisherfolk, with fish migrating up the waterfalls inland.
The Soltari seem, from Barinellos's descriptions, to potentially have a foothold in all the other colors, socially as well as religiously. I think they should have the most diverse landscape, all largely plainlike but with a wide variety of features, and maybe the largest overall area. I also think, though, that they should have the most alien flora and fauna within their landscape. What that should look like is... not coming to me yet, but it might be worthwhile to dig through older cards for instances of unique plants and animals that could conceivably make up their agriculture.
It's ok, I keep going to type "soratami" instead of "soltari." >_<
I see the goblins as one of the strong vectors for the fairy goth aesthetic here--lots of different colored makeup and the like. Maybe they could be fungus farmers? That could be interesting. We'd need something that would grow in the depths and I kind of like the idea of big caverns full of glowing fungus.
Goblins: Crafted by Time. Progressive society more or less built from UNDER the ground up. Tends to spread out rather than build up, mostly because of the sheer numbers they're dealing with, but also because of their need for constant frenetic expansion. They've made a surprising amount of breakthroughs, though everything tends to be slapped together just at the cusp of working. Regardless of that... dubious technological breakneck speed, they are quite handy as artisans, though their sense of beauty is a little questionable. Nominally ruled under the aegis of a monarchy.
Ok, here's why I bring up the big fungus full of glowing caverns thing: Orks. From Warhammer 40k.
For those of you who don't know, Orks from the 40k universe are basically hyper-intelligent, asexual fungi creatures that reproduce at a terrifying speed and are capable of building starships on instinct. That's about all the explanation we need about this for what I'm cooking up.
Barinellos stated (above) that the sheer numbers we're dealing with for goblins is accompanied by the constant need for "frenetic" expansion. What if the goblins of this world were also asexual fungi creatures, whose lives are so laughably short that, instead of needing to learn skills, goblins are born (or grown) as skilled artisans, craftsman, engineers, etc., and proceed to innovate, invent, and energize until the day that they die.
And then when they DO die, their squishy bodies are absorbed into a collective gene-pool, and anything new they discovered is passed on to the next infantile generation of budding goblins.
This goes a long way towards explaining their questionable sense of beauty (they are more concerned with function than form) and the speed at which they have technological breakthroughs. If each goblin only lives for, say, ten years apiece, the need to fill that time (see what I did there) with meaning is multiplied in direct correlation to the brevity of it.
The giant fungus with the glowing caverns is where the goblins are born (or grown) and where every goblins body is brought when they die. There is only one goblin, who rules over the other goblins, who is ageless. This goblin sits at the center of their enormous, underground mushroom brooding caverns, and directs the flow of instinct, idea, and innovation through all of goblin-kind. I'll call this goblin the Mushroom King for now, though I doubt this is a good idea in the long run.
Each goblin is individually responsible for the progress of the entire species, and the species is responsible for the propagation of each individual goblin. They have short names because time is fleeting. They run everywhere they go, and talk very quickly, because time is fleeting. Impatience - time is fleeting. The culture is all now, now, now - except for the Mushroom King. Infinite patience, slow to speak, considers all choices carefully, and chooses only the best one. In the picture in my head, this Mushroom King is one with the giant fungus (or fungi) from where the goblins are born (or grown). Maybe like. A big, blue, glowy mushroom throne, and the Mushroom King is attached at the feet or something? I don't know, but it looks cool in my head!
Also, we could totally put the fungus creature type in front of all the goblins and that would be awesome.
Oh man at the beginning I was like whaaat this is goofy but by the end I was totally digging it ahahaha.
I'm not sure we should push things as far as having them literally be fungal but I love the idea of them having short lifespans and an imperative to produce as rapidly as possible during that time. I think there's a lot of potential here to explore red creativity, in particular. And the image of the Mushroom King on his throne, merged with the biomatter around him, is a great visual.
I'm not sure what colors we're working with here beyond red, actually, which makes expanding on this a little tricky to my mind, but I think there's a lot of interesting potential here for the rank and file to occupy the Red side of Time with the Mushroom King(s) occupying the White side--they are more slow and ponderous, seeing the big picture and taking the time to direct the energies of the goblins when need be.
I think we'll have to be careful not to make them too close to the Pale, the fungal army faction on the Faskerian continent of Sertaria.
I almost can see them having an antagonistic relationship to ALL the gods, in contrast to the Soltari: hounded by Time, screaming at Fate, closed off from the Heavens, desperately grasping for Eternity, daring to challenge the World. In their defiance of their creator, they are zir image made manifest, a race born of a trickster.
So we've got Jackalfolk and Moonfolk. Can we play with a howling at the moon motif here? There seems like there's some potential there, too, to have phases of the moon tied to folktales about the jackal eating the moon. (That's a Thing, right?)
Dancing in general and bull dancing specifically could be interesting... although maybe not bulls but Craghorns? That could be interesting and would tie into the move to the mountains that Barinellos is suggesting as a major change in their society.
I think that idea is worth grabbing...
*puts on sunglasses*
...by the horns.
<The Who> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! </The Who>
_________________
"And remember, I'm pullin' for ya, 'cause we're all in this together." - Red Green
Oh man at the beginning I was like whaaat this is goofy but by the end I was totally digging it ahahaha.
Yeah, maybe starting with the whole Ork 40k thing wasn't the best idea, since there... really isn't a whole lot of things that are more goofy than an Ork.
But this just popped into my head from reading Barinellos' description and your fungus thing. So I just vomited it out. Hope it proves to be useful somehow!
I do like the idea of the goblins being... not atheist. What do you even call someone who knows that gods exist but purposefully spites them? Anti-deists? Counter-theologists? Republicans?
I was thinking that with the Satyrs, we could play around with the religious aspect that the Soltari have, but in a completely different way. I see the Satyrs as being tied somewhat to a ritualistic tradition, and they have one major ritual for each of the five gods. How this translates to their society, naturally playing off the Satyr trope, is a great Festival for each of the gods. So five times a year (or ten, if we're talking about the avatars and not the gods themselves) the Stayrs gather in massive festivals in celebration of the gods.
To be honest, I have no strong opinion on this one way or another, but I think it'd be better to go directly to the gods rather than the avatars. The avatars aren't individuals... well, rather to say they are an entire RACE of created beings meant to be called into being when the gods want to mess with the world. As such, they're actually surprisingly varied as individuals. But I'm getting off track. I think tying them to the calender works.
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Do you think we could get away with having five seasons on this world? That would fit nicely. Conversely, if we're going the avatar route, maybe the Satyrs have a ten-month calendar? Could work.
It's hard to think in terms of five seasons to be honest. I asked earlier how many moons we thought we should use, in part so that we could work a little with the calenders. Plus, the entire alien sky thing... Which actually makes me think, how would we feel about having another celestial object altogether? What if... we had a RING around the planet? (Fridge horror! It's the CORPSE of the previous world that wasn't used when they remade it!)
They were actually created by World not Eternity, but I think the Helix Pinnacle could still work! It's a cool visual. Maybe spirals in general are a thing for them--spiralling horns, spiralling pinnacles, spiralling dances... could be interesting. What's that Theresa Nielsen piece with the spiral in the art, again?
You just want some excuses to make Spiral Energy jokes, don't you? That's okay, I'm actually pretty cool with the Satyrs studying the Golden Ratio.
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I similarly like the idea of them using horns as actual horns. It's weird but fascinating and really pushes the alien-factor for them, which I'm increasingly convinced is an envelope we should be pushing more.
I actually see them as so grounded in The World that they don't... actually HAVE anything that is sacred aside from the groves themselves. I mean, they aren't savages, because blue was part of their creation and there's some level of that in their society, but they'd see raw resources in a body, but not in a hippy way. Or a Phyrexian way. SHUT UP KEEPER. ALL CAN'T BE ONE. (You now realize that the aspects for The World are All and One.)
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Dancing in general and bull dancing specifically could be interesting... although maybe not bulls but Craghorns? That could be interesting and would tie into the move to the mountains that Barinellos is suggesting as a major change in their society.
On the one hand, potential reprint of Satyr Grovedancer but on the other... I feel revelry kind of ties into red rather than green.
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I almost think some Frank Lloyd Wright style architectural and design elements would be interesting for the Moonfolk, what with, I mean, obviously, the waterfalls, but on top of that the whole notion of the cosmos and the Heavenly Sphere leading to lots of vertical lines and circles and so on--I'm seeing a very geometric kind of setup there.
One other thought maybe worth exploring: Moonfolk as freshwater fisherfolk, with fish migrating up the waterfalls inland.
You just want an excuse to have the moonfolk version of the guggenheim, don't you? Because I'd honestly been going in that sort of direction anyways, so I'm fine with that. Of course, there are elements that make it a bit harder to have that level of complexity given their tech zenith. Also, they probably have some of these in public squares and the like: http://photos.tradeholding.com/attach/h ... ntain4.jpg
The lowlands and valleys are these gigantic seas connected by rivers, with lush banks for farming and those "lower moonfolk" are more of the fishermen and rural folk. It's interesting to have that kind of social striation being a literal sort of thing.
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The Soltari seem, from Barinellos's descriptions, to potentially have a foothold in all the other colors, socially as well as religiously. I think they should have the most diverse landscape, all largely plainlike but with a wide variety of features, and maybe the largest overall area. I also think, though, that they should have the most alien flora and fauna within their landscape. What that should look like is... not coming to me yet, but it might be worthwhile to dig through older cards for instances of unique plants and animals that could conceivably make up their agriculture.
I've had just about zero inspiration for their biomes and geography. We know that they should have some amount of flatlands, but the Goblins are the ones that have the primary plains-esque native lands. Maybe play a little with the swamps?... dunno.
I see the goblins as one of the strong vectors for the fairy goth aesthetic here--lots of different colored makeup and the like. Maybe they could be fungus farmers? That could be interesting. We'd need something that would grow in the depths and I kind of like the idea of big caverns full of glowing fungus.
The thing is, even though they go underground a little, they've BURST out of the warrens as they've socially grown. They're above ground completely at this point, aside from some basic bulwarks and maybe some ruins. They simply CAN'T survive underground with the society that has resulted from their move outwards.
Which is why addressing Ruwin's post is going to be rough....
Barinellos stated (above) that the sheer numbers we're dealing with for goblins is accompanied by the constant need for "frenetic" expansion. What if the goblins of this world were also asexual fungi creatures, whose lives are so laughably short that, instead of needing to learn skills, goblins are born (or grown) as skilled artisans, craftsman, engineers, etc., and proceed to innovate, invent, and energize until the day that they die.
And then when they DO die, their squishy bodies are absorbed into a collective gene-pool, and anything new they discovered is passed on to the next infantile generation of budding goblins.
I think this might end up being a bit too far afield into the weird territories. I mean, it's a neat idea, but I don't think this is the place for it, in part because the gods were all building from the same basic blueprints, even if they got all smudged, so they knew and agreed on what their memories showed them of how things were born and died.
It just all feels a bit TOO much. Which makes me feel bad because you'd typed so much up.
Oh man at the beginning I was like whaaat this is goofy but by the end I was totally digging it ahahaha.
I'm not sure we should push things as far as having them literally be fungal but I love the idea of them having short lifespans and an imperative to produce as rapidly as possible during that time. I think there's a lot of potential here to explore red creativity, in particular. And the image of the Mushroom King on his throne, merged with the biomatter around him, is a great visual.
I generally agree with a lot of what Keeper says here, but the Mushroom King thing, and really, the emphasis on the fungus as part of their society feels off. (it is a good visual, but I was thinking a definitely more traditional monarchy.)
BUT, the short life span (though probably longer than 10 years. Maybe 20.) and the drive to innovate* is right at the core of what I feel makes a good resonance for them. That being said, this brings up their dietary concerns. I think it would be great if they had very simple dietary needs. Two food groups: Fungus and Meat.
*they're concerned with innovation, not perfection. It's enough to make something new and push the envelope, never mind if it's rickety or about to EXPLODE, so long as it works most of the time. Ironically doesn't apply to the architecture.
In terms of their expansion, I actually see them as having a nearly Ravnican sensibility of city planning. Just keep making MORE CITY. Hell, they don't even have more than one city/settlement at all, just this MASSIVE spread out monstrosity that is just constantly getting built outwards and some parts end up hugely overgrown. It hasn't reached the serious saturation point yet, but it amuses me that they just keep pushing the city limits out until they have to start sorting by districts.
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I'm not sure what colors we're working with here beyond red, actually, which makes expanding on this a little tricky to my mind, but I think there's a lot of interesting potential here for the rank and file to occupy the Red side of Time with the Mushroom King(s) occupying the White side--they are more slow and ponderous, seeing the big picture and taking the time to direct the energies of the goblins when need be.
I think we'll have to be careful not to make them too close to the Pale, the fungal army faction on the Faskerian continent of Sertaria.
Killing the Mushroom King thing. I just... the entire fungal thing is too much guys. The monarchy can still have a sense of the bigger picture, but I'm not seeing how they're able to last longer than their subjects.
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I almost can see them having an antagonistic relationship to ALL the gods, in contrast to the Soltari: hounded by Time, screaming at Fate, closed off from the Heavens, desperately grasping for Eternity, daring to challenge the World. In their defiance of their creator, they are zir image made manifest, a race born of a trickster.
I see them as having a very different worldview in that aspect. It's not that they're actively antagonistic, they just don't have the TIME to bother with worship. It's impractical.
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So we've got Jackalfolk and Moonfolk. Can we play with a howling at the moon motif here? There seems like there's some potential there, too, to have phases of the moon tied to folktales about the jackal eating the moon. (That's a Thing, right?)
Wolves eat the moon. Jackals... jackals don't do much. I actually like the Hindu relationship to the Moon here, where the Moon is actually where they store their Soma, the divine nectar, and the phases are tied to the gods hitting the sauce. But there again, I want to try to push the alien sky a bit more.
_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost. Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind. To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"
That's a lot to go through. I think we're on roughly a similar page with Satyrs and Moonfolk which is good. Jackals vs Wolves... eh, it's close enough in my book to have some interesting mythological tie-ins, even if they're sort of ultimately pseudo-mythological. I do like your alien sky thing, particularly the Ring. And hey, we have a Meteorite card now! (M15 looks really cool.) Sorry to lose the Mushroom King since I love that visual, but glad the basic idea of the timeframe the Gobs are working with being super short is something we can keep here.
@Barinellos: No worries, yo. I just write stream of consciousness to keep me from gouging out people's eyes while I'm at work out of boredom. Since it's the fourth, I'm like... the only person here today, so I would have to gouge out MY eyes.
Please don't make me gouge out my eyes. I mean. Any more than you are already instigating that compulsion through your existence in this reality.
Man what was I even getting at. Oh, right! Yea, glad I could contribute a little bit.
@OL: AAAAAUUUUUGH NOTHING HELPS!! *writhes in pain with spoons sticking out of eyes*
...Anyway.
To be clear, I was referencing your eldritch horrorterror manifestation, Barinellos. You don't actually make me want to gouge my eyes out, and re-reading what I wrote, I was afraid it may be misconstrued as inappropriately rude. O_O
To be clear, I was referencing your eldritch horrorterror manifestation, Barinellos. You don't actually make me want to gouge my eyes out, and re-reading what I wrote, I was afraid it may be misconstrued as inappropriately rude. O_O
Sorry about that.
Nah, it's fine. I always just feel bad about shutting down interesting ideas, but ultimately I really felt like it was just that step too far into the Weird with everything we're already doing.
That's a lot to go through. I think we're on roughly a similar page with Satyrs and Moonfolk which is good. Jackals vs Wolves... eh, it's close enough in my book to have some interesting mythological tie-ins, even if they're sort of ultimately pseudo-mythological. I do like your alien sky thing, particularly the Ring. And hey, we have a Meteorite card now! (M15 looks really cool.) Sorry to lose the Mushroom King since I love that visual, but glad the basic idea of the timeframe the Gobs are working with being super short is something we can keep here.
honestly, partly I just really like saying guggenheim. guuuuuuggenheim. Alright, done now. So, do we want the single moon, but use the Ring as our alien sky motif?
The Goblins right now feel like the thing we should dedicate ourselves most closely right now given the... broad brush we're painting with. Any thoughts about what I said about them? Anybody?
_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost. Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind. To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"
What you've said feels right to me--the idea of them creating but not necessarily in a perfectionist way, and in such a way that a lot of knowledge is repeatedly lost, feels right to me. It's an intriguing notion.
I also wouldn't mind there being more than one moon, in addition to the ring. If we're doing an alien sky, and one of the gods is Cosmos, we might as well push things as far as we can. It also would help differentiate things from Nyx.
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